Exploring Joseph Campbell and cutting the Gordian Knot

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JamesN.
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Exploring Joseph Campbell and cutting the Gordian Knot

Post by JamesN. »

Reason for this topic:

In the seemingly unsolvable conundrums and difficult dilemmas facing modern life this thread was created as an attempt to explore a particular application of Joseph Campbell's work. The insights came out of a discussion in Clemsy's Dream Class thread concerning the horrors of psychological dysfunction and their results generating from various sociological conditions such as the improper imprinting of a child's sense of self or the cultural bias that certain environments breed out of which these inhumane perceptions arise. And like the reference of Alexander The Great's sword cutting the Gordian Knot; Joe's work might help cut through these perceptions to promote the further understanding of how to deal with or address these or other similar issues.


Ercan wrote:
Suicide is self-directed aggression, they say. But perhaps worse is when one discerns an unhappy childhood and a missing father behind crimminal acts towards others and society in general as we witnessed in several tragic incidents recently in Europe.

I wrote:
Joseph Campbell seemed to think so to when he referred to the lack of correct societal signals and lack of mythical connection in helping to develope a healthy sense of self esteem, identity, and life navigational skills. The overwhelming cultural emphasis on material possessions and notoriety are I think very difficult obstacles to overcome in the teaching process about developing values as one example.



And I wrote:
I personally think until the cultural bias of Mental Health in general is more fully acknowledged a major concern in modern society it will remain a sort half-visible White Elephant. This could be applied over a huge swath and range in many aspects of society in general; from soldiers with post traumatic stress disorder, to attention deficit disorder in children; not to mention the way any people are treated with any type of mental condition;



Nermin wrote:

James IMHO, our definition of man is less than accurate. That's where I start finding law synthetic and transit. Do we really have to pretend to be civile when its' clear that we are not? Law exactly like science, only prevails within its strictly limited domain whereas there's only brutality on the other side. Take for instance Bashar al-Assad of Syria .... He pretends to be just and legal when clandestinely barganing with Moscow or Tehran
.
And Nermin wrote...
The law of these people is another law. A very fictional justice defending only their interests. Law then becomes a cover-up , an illusion, a gruesome lie.
And Nermin wrote:
... But, I'm only trying to find a fair ground, an honest starting point to sort out.




And with this last statement is where I think this thread starts :!:


My apologies to Ercan, Nermin, Clemcy, and my other fellow associates in my humble attempts here for the sake of brevity at clarity and framing this thread if it is lacking in depth; or comprehension. My sincere hope is that it will encourage at least some discussion not only at an attempt on this issue but that in generating others as well.


Namaste :D
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hello everyone.

To start with one thing that might be helpful to take into consideration is the impact that cultural bais plays in influencing one's outlook. For instance much of what you are seeing playing out on the world stage right now in the Middle East and Eastern Europe has deep roots going back to the Ottoman Empire. Also the huge role that Islamic identity has; not to mention all the shuffling of ethnic borders that has been taking place over the last century.

With this in mind one must also take into account the massive changes in political and economic power; not to mention the unbelievable technological evolution that has taken place to understand how it has in many ways isolated these very old societies.

As to childrens attempts of assimilation I think you have not only a disconnect but a conflict of cultural ideas and identity that is extremely disorienting to them so they are left pretty much to their own devices of working things out for themselves.

There are certainly other factors to be taken into account but I think Joseph Campbell realized and was able to articulate much of this awareness in his work and was able to point a direction in which we could get a grasp of at least part of the dilemma.

I'll start here and see if anyone has thoughts!


Cheers :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
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Post by Nermin »

James,
I simply feel privileged to be mentioned
in this chic intro for the new thread.
Thank you also for your courteous invitation.
Certainly, we'll start posting by and by :)
Nermin

Ercan2121
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Re: Exploring Joseph Campbell and cutting the Gordian Knot

Post by Ercan2121 »

JamesN. wrote:
My apologies to Ercan, Nermin, Clemcy, and my other fellow associates in my humble attempts here for the sake of brevity at clarity and framing this thread if it is lacking in depth; or comprehension. My sincere hope is that it will encourage at least some discussion not only at an attempt on this issue but that in generating others as well.
we're coming in reverence, my old friend :wink:

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Post by JamesN. »

My dear good friends and congenial Campellian collegues you are entirely too generous; but I cherish the good wishes.

I like to think Joe's spirit is present in many of these endeavers and look forward to further explorations of applying his interpretaive insight to these difficult issues.

Meanwhile I will enjoy being in your company as we move ahead.

Best Wishes 8) :D
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Nermin »

Then, let me start with the portrait of one of the most notorious women
of Middle East; namely Asma Assad. People started asking -is-she still
a mother? Is-she still a woman?

Maybe the following can give you some idea about the 'other' Syria :(
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ideos.html

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Post by JamesN. »

Hello everyone.

Excellent insight here Nermin. This dimension of this international crisis that is playing out in the moment is a very good example of societal verses personal perception and is a component of a larger dynamic in play here.

I think we should take our time here to explore some of it's other facets as we probe.

I'd like to widen this thread out a bit. Here is one of the main stories sweeping the news cycle today.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-m ... s-16519315

I think this story underlines one of the elements that is driven by and that creates this condition and invisible environmental landscape we are addressing about mental health and it's impact in the world today. ( We'll get into this more as this topic unfolds. )

:idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Ercan2121
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Post by Ercan2121 »

Hello all,
The other day, a friend of mine sent me a pdf-booklet prepared
by Harward Law School. It's called 'We Have Human Rights' and
I'd like to share the link with you.
Wishing everbody a nice, inspiring weekend :)
http://www.hpod.org/pdf/we-have-human-rights.pdf
© 2008 The President and Fellows of Harvard College
All rights reserved
ISBN 978-1-60643-065-1

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Post by Nermin »

Thanks for the great article, James. Let me tell you first of all, those things that come to my mind at once -with no special effort to express myself more intellectually. We can later start discussing he matter thoroughoutly. I think that such cases are not uncommon in other armies of the world. Above all, soldiers are people who are inevitably familiar with weapons and they live closer to the idea of death even in times of peace when compared to most people. That’s a way of living –IMHO- quite favorable for considering death as a viable option when confronted with problems of life. There’s a passage in your article depicting the feelings of a young person ‘hating to ask for help’ and choosing suicide to an experience that he finds even more troublesome -psychologically. Asking for help, admiting his humanly mistakes and affirming life as a ‘not so heroic human being’. Apparently, this has no place at all in his philosophy? Death can be an unknown but he rejects the idea of humility altogether. This also reminds of some other adaptive disorders encountered in people who fought or lived a challenging life for a long time. Do-they lose ‘the meaning’ of life? JC doesn’t like this word but I’m not using it as an incontestable definition but as a variable that one sets by one’s heart. Maybe that’s not ‘bliss’ all the time but ‘a sense of joy’ or ‘a sense of hope’ sometimes. We’re nourished by that ‘meaning’, live on it and don’t even think about commiting suicide. However, we don’t know what to do when we lose that motility and that’s where the trouble starts :(

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Post by JamesN. »

Outsanding piece on Human rights Ercan. Takes this to a whole new dimension which is part of the point here. The raising of awareness and consciousness ( which I feel was part of Joe's message ).

Nermin your thoughts are well founded I think. We are starting to go into deeper waters here; but that is as it should be. And now as we are engaging some of this powerful subject matter there is a kind of linking or Adrianne Thread that I believe inter-connects to a larger conversation; and that is a type of Global discussion if you will. And I also think because of the Internet we are joined or inter-connected in the moment Globally and you can begin to see this playing out a little more and more as we go along; with all sorts of side paths. ( Consider the " Arab Spring " in this way for instance. ) ( Kind of like a big tree trunk with deep deep roots but with large branches and many smaller ones spreading out ever widening; everything still connected. ) A stretch perhaps; but works here in a theoretical, abstract; but still evolutional way I think.

Mankind's large and very diverse histories, cultures, and mythologies are struggling to find the answers to age old questions yet having to come to agreement together. It's not perfect; it's a mess and sometimes a big mess; catastrophic even. ( Kind of like a big orchestra with no conductor but everyone playing at once ). ( Although there are definitely certain groups trying to engineer the show. ) In the meantime us puny little human creatures on an individual level are caught in the middle and have to figure out how to survive the Tsunami of Change without getting consumed in it's wake. And all the while I might add; having to assimilate a sense of meaning or at least keeping a sense of balance in the process. ( Not an easy thing to achieve considering the ever increasing rate of change. ) Then of course there is the planet itself to consider which is our maternal, life sustaining and wonderous environment; encapsuled within in a universe so vast it's comprehension defies us all. ( One wonders how long the luck of man's ignorant and self-absorbed behavior will hold before it's consequences will begin to show. )

Joseph Campbell had an ability to connect the dots on so very many different levels and understand those threads of the world's tapestry; much less it's mythical DNA composition; and was also able to see it's Grand Design and interpret what it was saying pointing forward. ( At the very least he was able to give us a few clues where he thought things were headed. ) Whether it is children's abuse; psychological dysfunction or development; a soldier's suicide or broken sense-of-self; their total sense of self sacrifice; not to mention their courage; and the undeniable self-evident truth behind the rights of human dignity; these themes are connected. (At least I think so. )

What a soldier is asked to endure mentally; physically; and especially emotionally is unfathonable and unimaginable we should sure be to understand; and far beyond what most of us are subject to in daily life. ( That is of course unless you are there where it is happening; or some place of similar violence and suffering. ) And to expect anything close to what we would view as normal adjustment going into much less coming out of such an experience would be totally oblivious; much less unfair. And yet as a society we do! ( An important point that is implied by Nermin's insightful post. ) Joe mentions the heroic sacrifices in " Power of Myth " that we saw playing out on the evening news during the " Vietnam War "; and this was another example of the way he was able to cross-connect themes.

Finally; Joe was only a human being like we all are and would not have appreciated being Lionized or deified. But he left behind a body of work that is of tremendous benefit in helping us understand many of the navigational issues that lay ahead. And as we go further into this perhaps some interesting insights may reveal themselves.

This post is a little ragged but then the wandering of these themes do sometimes produce these results. ( I certainly do my share of that. ) Part of the package and a good part I think in some ways; at least if it is not to challenging to read.

Thanks for what you are bringing and the spirit behind the efforts. I am humbled and honored to be with you and look forward to more of what you have to say. :D
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Ercan2121 »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure
http://judoinfo.com/pdf/hagakure.pdf

My dear friends,
It’s often said that there’s a ritual for everything in Japan and you’d probably
also heard about the ritual of suicide along with countless Western misinterpretations.
Being no authority in Samurai ethics, I have very little to tell on this matter.
However, i’m sincerely concerned about the question ‘why a young person attempts
suicide?’ and wish to add here a couple of links that may be of help to those wanting
to learn about. Respectfully

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Post by Nermin »

Hello all,
In the following interview, Carl Gustav Jung explains why he thinks that death is
psychologically just as important as birth and that's even an integral part of life;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o
Thanks

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Post by Nermin »

Joe was only a human being like we all are and would not have appreciated being Lionized or deified. But he left behind a body of work that is of tremendous benefit in helping us understand many of the navigational issues that lay ahead. And as we go further into this perhaps some interesting insights may reveal themselves.
Let me start from this paragraph, James; there is something controversial about the way
Joseph Campbell interprets world myths however, his ability to reach lay people like us
is unmached -in my opinion.
He makes great minds of he world attainable and that's I believe is enough reason to read him :)

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Post by JamesN. »

Good Morning all.

Wow! Tremendous thoughts here!


Ercan; Very powerful and contemplative material. It will take me awhile to digest the second one but deeply thoughtful and instructive. Really, really nice my friend.


Nermin; When I had seen this clip of Jung before I was so moved by the intuitive poignancy and understanding of it's logic. I was again reminded of the beauty of the soft music in the background as if the melody of life itself were speaking to us through his words delivering the message.

As to the second post; I most definitely agree.


From the pond; to the lake; to the sea; as we go deeper; I could not possibly add anything better here. You guys are bringing it! ( You must pardon me if I am a little over enthusiastic at times. One of my weaknesses I guess. ) . :roll: :lol:


Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Nermin »

Hello again,
We mentioned Japan and now maybe we can balance the legacy of Far East with
a link to an extraordinary website dedicated to Chinese storytelling;
http://www.shuoshu.org/
Please enjoy, all fathers and mothers of the world :)

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