Changing the mindset on how we view human interconnection

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neoplato wrote:
In short I think the conclusion one evidently comes to is:" No dialogue; no change! "
I believe our point of disagreement is not "should a dialog take place" but "can a dialog take place"?

And as of today, I don't believe a dialog can take place and barriers can't be broken because people are so unconscious of their own mindsets they will defend the most irrational thought or belief to the death. Typically that means the death of innocent victims. :(

I think what we're really talking about here is the philosophy behind "game theory". How do you get a person to choose the option that maximizes the benefit to everyone when that person is only interested in maximizing his benefit and minimizing everyone else's?

We're dealing with people who want their guns and really don't care who has to die in the process. I really see no way to open a dialog with someone inflicted with societal insanity.

You can't have a discussion with a brick wall (or a cat).

Neo this just appeared on yahoo and is an example of the kind of paranoid, " fear-driven " logic that is promoting this lunacy. :shock:

http://news.yahoo.com/kiehne-arizona-de ... 15876.html

I just think you have to get people talking to each other if you want to get anywhere. Is it polarized? ( Yes ) and it's scary; no one is denying that. I don't know what Joseph Campbell would say about all of this but I don't think he would say do nothing. And I'm not inferring that you are saying otherwise either; but clearly something has to be done. Gabrielle Giffords is still in there trying to make a difference. This is not about the right to own a firearm or the defense of one's family. This about promoting " fear " and " demonizing compromise " at the expense of the public's welfare. :!:

Incidentally ; I don't think " cats " own firearms. :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

James, I am not opposed to achieving a change. It is eminently doable! Of course. The difficulty is not an issue for me.

This is the problem I raise:

Both sides are trying to persuade the other side. One side speaks emotion. The other speaks reason. It might be reasonable for one side to learn the language of the other.

We who are of a liberal bent tend to use those techniques of persuasion that best appeal to us. We avoid and disdain demagogues. Yet, I believe there is something to be said for those natural skills of persuasion that start with a keen understanding of what the audience feels.

http://changingminds.org/index.htm

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

I think the firearm problem in the US has to do more with societal values than legislation and dialogue. There are other countries which have the same laws for firearms with the US and they don't have incidents like the ones happening in the US.

My take is that the US first has to change its mentality on war and then things will start to fix. Campbell made a good point when he said that in America we name our streets after generals and war heroes and in France they name them after poets (If I remember correctly). ;)

Don't get me wrong though. I do believe that legislation about firearms will fix part of the problem just not the whole problem.
Last edited by Andreas on Mon May 19, 2014 5:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Carmela that is definitely one of the coolest site links I have come across since I have been on these forums. I have taken the liberty of posting it on the " Art of Discourse " thread; and highly recommend anyone that participates here to take a look. A really nice addition and thank you for sharing it! 8)

( I started with the separate categories of Argument and Rhetoric in the Disciplines, then Conversation and Using Humor in the Techniques section and began following some of the subsequent link suggestions within the various pages as they unfolded; and the Principles section was really fascinating as well. " Wow! " )

Awesome!

Addendum: ( In reference to the above points raised I would add one thing to consider and that is IMHO the raising of " social consciousness " ; ( which is one thing dialogue aides in ); should also be included within this conversation or discourse. ) :idea:

Andreas:
Campbell made a good point when he said that in America we name our streets over generals and war heroes and in France they name them over poets (If I remember correctly).
( Indeed Andreas; but we did get one right and that was " Sesame Street ". ) :P :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesame_Street
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

lol James. :)

Oh and btw... Hey Neo!!

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

James Wrote:
I just think you have to get people talking to each other if you want to get anywhere. Is it polarized? ( Yes ) and it's scary; no one is denying that. I don't know what Joseph Campbell would say about all of this but I don't think he would say do nothing. And I'm not inferring that you are saying otherwise either; but clearly something has to be done.
I can't speak for Joe either but here's something from my buddy Carl:
The final appeal to reason would be very fine if man were by nature a rational animal, but he is not; on the contrary, he is quite as much irrational. Hence reason is often not sufficient to modify the instinct and make it conform to rational order.

CW 16: The Practice of Psychotherapy.


Hey Andreas!
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neoplato wrote:James Wrote:
I just think you have to get people talking to each other if you want to get anywhere. Is it polarized? ( Yes ) and it's scary; no one is denying that. I don't know what Joseph Campbell would say about all of this but I don't think he would say do nothing. And I'm not inferring that you are saying otherwise either; but clearly something has to be done.
I can't speak for Joe either but here's something from my buddy Carl:
The final appeal to reason would be very fine if man were by nature a rational animal, but he is not; on the contrary, he is quite as much irrational. Hence reason is often not sufficient to modify the instinct and make it conform to rational order.

CW 16: The Practice of Psychotherapy.


Hey Andreas!

Indeed Neo; ( yes ) I think the point about the animal or irrational aspect of human nature most definitely has to be acknowledged and that most folks would agree that is a given. But in reference to Joseph Campbell's themes and the sense of how it would apply here as I have come to understand it would be to engage but with a certain " discrimination ". When he said: " Joyful participation in the sorrows of the world " my sense of this was he did not say to " cure " the world but to interact as a rational and compassionate human being; not to be oblivious or foolish in one's perception. If there is a dangerous situation indeed one reacts with common sense; but also responsibly as well. So does one ignore the situation or walk away; especially when considering the lives of one's children; family; and friends might be affected? ( That seems to be the topic; yes? ) Does this imply some magic formula or rule or thumb that Joseph mentions? I'm not sure if there is some " magic wand " that would apply specifically in this case to what he said or not; ( I'm being facetcious of course ); but his response might have depended on a number of things. But more to the point I like you have very serious concerns about these issues connected to this extremely polarized environment that surrounds us like many other people. And indeed I think that this is one of the reasons these forums as I have come to understand them exist; and that is in the realization and utilization of Joe's ideas in a sensible; practical; useful way in the navigating of one's life; no? In all due respect Neo; I agree that Carl Jung and a whole host of other great minds have made many philosophical observations in relation to humanities flaws; yes; they certainly do exist. But I am also concerned with the ( present ) " human dilemma " we are faced with and looking at this with some " fresh eyes " if you see my point. ( I appreciate what you are saying but I don't think the context of historical and existing negative behavioral patterns; ( yes they obviously are a driver ); are the " definitive " issue here as much as changing the environment that " promotes " them. ) :idea:

( Also I might add that; ( yes ); there are other factors that are exploiting and manipulating this negative aspect to their advantage; i.e.; political and special interest groups; etc. :roll: But I'm assuming you are including this influence as well. )
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

James Wrote:
When he said: " Joyful participation in the sorrows of the world " my sense of this was he did not say to " cure " the world but to interact as a rational and compassionate human being; not to be oblivious or foolish in one's perception.
I have always had issues with the concept of “Joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world.” When tragedies occur, the last thing I want to do is go “tiptoeing through the tulips.”

Recently I came across a similar notion that sits a little better with me. “Find enjoyment in the normal aspects of daily living.” Maybe this sits better because the focus is on me and not the world. :?

In either case, these notions don’t appear to focus on finding a cure for the woes of society. :(
If there is a dangerous situation indeed one reacts with common sense; but also responsibly as well. So does one ignore the situation or walk away; especially when considering the lives of one's children; family; and friends might be affected?
TEA PARTY MENTALITY: “And that’s exactly the reason why we need more guns. So I can shoot em’ in the back before they get me and my family. And that is common sense; that is the rule of nature; eat or be eaten! Kill or be killed! If we don’t nuke them first, they’ll nuke us!”
I like you have very serious concerns about these issues connected to this extremely polarized environment that surrounds us like many other people. And indeed I think that this is one of the reasons these forums as I have come to understand them exist; and that is in the realization and utilization of Joe's ideas in a sensible; practical; useful way in the navigating of one's life; no?
However, the navigation of one’s life doesn’t depend on opening a dialog with hard headed, short sighted, individuals. If we don’t want to interact with someone, we can choose not to and walk away.

Not so on the societal level. These knuckleheaded mentalities have to be dealt with, (especially when it dominates a portion of our legislative branch), if there is to be a change in our society.

But, it appears that perseverance may bring about change in the end. McCarthyism, segregation, and Jim Crowe laws have been phased out of society but the KKK and Neo-Nazis still exist. We are currently making progress on eliminating bias on sexual identity, but that is an uphill battle and keep in mind that the ERA was never passed. Gun control in a society where killing is profitable appears to cause some social indigestion.
But I am also concerned with the ( present ) " human dilemma " we are faced with and looking at this with some " fresh eyes " if you see my point.
Wisdom is never violent: where wisdom reigns there is no conflict between thinking and feeling.
-C.G. Jung, CW 14: Mysterium Coniunctionis
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Thanks for the refinement Neo. And I might add that there is probably more that we may find agreement upon as to certain areas than not.

However I don't think Joseph's interpretation was meant quite this way:

I have always had issues with the concept of “Joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world.” When tragedies occur, the last thing I want to do is go “tiptoeing through the tulips.”
My sense of this was more in line with when he said: ( " suffering with "; than " oblivious to " ) if I am understanding you here. By that I mean being connected to the humanity with compassion and understanding it's " transcendent " aspect; and not assuming there is no connection; ( i.e. " you and the other are one " example he quotes in Power of Myth when the police officer recues the attempted suicide victim ). But perhaps it is " I " who is misreading and assuming an incorrect interpretation as to your thoughts here. ( If so; my apologies. ) The nice thing about dialogue is that " it clarifies and prevents misunderstanding " is what I'm trying to emphasize. I think this is where at least some of the problems begin. Regardless of what some of the other more " antagonistic " societal influences promote; whatever their reasons. :roll:
But, it appears that perseverance may bring about change in the end.

I hope so Neo. As to what is realistic; maybe " both " can help. :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

For those who have not seen this story here is an yet another example of why IMHO this issue so important.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isla-v ... nt-n113996

:(
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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

JamesN. wrote:For those who have not seen this story here is an yet another example of why IMHO this issue so important.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isla-v ... nt-n113996

:(
And here we go again. :(

And yes...we can debate back and forth "What came first...the chicken or the egg?"
NBC News has not independently verified the authenticity of the document, but Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown referred to it several times Saturday as helping to establish that Rodger was "disturbed" and "a madman."
Yep... that's the typical way it works.

However, after reading the article, this person appears to have had a very difficult time adjusting to social norms and societal expectations when it came to interactions with the opposite sex.

This apparently gave him the emotional experience of being a "leper; outcast; unclean". This experience along with the prevalence of violence in our society, and the easy access to guns, was too much temptation for him. If "they" didn't notice him when he was a "nice guy" he was sure going to make "them" notice him now. And not only "them" but the whole world...just like all those other "terrorists".

Now try to get a group of people in a room to determine the single "cause" for the behavior. :?

Meanwhile, there are other "nutters" out there planning how they're going to get back at "them". :!:
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Neo; I don't know how much of the news you have seen about this story but here are couple of articles that may add a little more to what you may already know. Today I heard on the news that a father of one of the victim's and the father of the gunman are suppose to get together soon to talk about how they can do something to help put a stop to this. I know this tragedy in some ways seems like the same old sad story we've seen before; but maybe there is more public support this time; ( we'll see ).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/0 ... n-control/

http://news.yahoo.com/california-gunman ... 27059.html

Maybe Cindy can drop by at some point and share some of her professional insights about this when she has time. Perhaps she can shed some light for a better understanding as to what some of the psychological aspects are.

:idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

JamesN. wrote:I know this tragedy in some ways seems like the same old sad story we've seen before; but maybe there is more public support this time; ( we'll see ).
:idea:
Public support-Maybe. Political support-Probably not.
“Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the NRA. They talk about gun rights. What about Chris’s right to live? When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say: ‘Stop this madness. We don’t have to live like this?’ Too many have died. We should say to ourselves: Not one more.”

To date, it’s still easier to access a gun than mental health services in this country.
And both of these are easier than to address the underlying cause in the first place. :!:
“This tragedy demonstrates once again the need to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill,” “We’ve got to look at how we define mental illness, who is denied weapons and who is not, and focus the discussion. We have to have this debate.”
Of course this assumes a legal aspect to the solution. Unfortunately, it can’t account for the ‘black market” or guns stolen from parents or neighbors. These solutions, IMHO, are corrective actions to flaws in society instead of focusing on how to minimize the flaws in the first place. However, it would provide an extra hurdle.

And here’s a question to ponder: “How much societal nonconformity determines if someone is mentally ill?” :shock:
“Americans need to rise up and say enough is enough. Until that happens, we will continue to see these devastating attacks. Shame on us for allowing this to continue.”
And even if Americans "rise up", who is going to fork over the money to persuade those who have the power to vote? Or maybe this is really a subliminal message to vote democratic? In either case, who is going to turn down the money flowing in from the NRA?

The flawed thinking, IMHO, can be demonstrated like this: “I’m sorry your son died, but the more I support gun rights, the more money for me. And since I’m more important than you, and need to keep my lifestyle, there is really nothing I can do.”
Martinez said his son died because Congress had failed to act after a mentally ill gunman killed 26 people in December 2012 at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.

"These people are getting rich sitting in Congress. And what do they do? They don't take care of our kids," he said.
No “they” don’t care or take care of "our" kids. And in their view, that is not their responsibility. Will more dialog change their viewpoint when money speaks louder than words (or lives)? :?:
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Neo.

I agree that the landscape on this issue does not look encouraging; that is true. And yes you can bet the blow back from the NRA and other gun-rights supporters will be intense ; ( although for the moment probably measured ). But the point here I think is engagement within the society.

But let us be clear about the reality we are facing with this; " we do not live in a perfect world ". But the society cannot just let this continue down the same path in my view. IMHO the issue here as I see it is as I said before: ( About promoting " fear " and " demonizing compromise " at the expense of the public's welfare. ) And you can bet that is exactly the tactic and approach the blowback is going to be about. And to further exploit and exacerbate the atmosphere there will no doubt be efforts towards utilizing this to energize the Tea Party base support in the coming election season strategy.

To me at the deeper roots of much these kinds of political stalemates lies " Campaign Finance Reform "; because until this is addressed; both parties are held hostage within it's grip. And just like the issues you have pointed out; that is the master they will serve; ( unless ); there is a huge public outcry for change which can only be accomplished by engagement. Both sides probably will not get what they want; yes more than likely. But also a more subliminal tone will have been established that the status quo is no longer acceptable. Will movement toward " serious reform " in this case get traction; that depends on the level of pressure the politicians encounter and have to appease. But unless some kind of social effort at engagement is made and everyone just sits there and goes: " Oh well; it's their job; I wish they would do something. " nothing but " posturing " will more than likely be the result.

Yes this is not a pleasant or encouraging situation is it? But I think part of the reason this mess is getting worse is because the general public's perception is being manipulated by the political " spin " and isn't really informed enough yet to come to a general consensus. That's what the ( spin-war ) is all about. Polls and talk-shows, pundits and super-pacs, commentaries, blogs and forums all play a part in the public discourse; but you have to have the publics engagement to have resolution. At least that's the way this looks to me. I don't disagree with some of your assessments about the realities really; just perhaps some of the aspects on how it might be dealt with. You have stated earlier that you are not sure if a Public Conversation ( can ) take place because of the present circumstances; and I am saying that it ( must ) take place for anything to change. If both sides just leave things as they are and retreat back into their comfort zones as if this is going to go away; I think this issue is going to keep getting worse; a lot worse. And I think it is inevitable one way or another to a larger extent that we as a society are going to have to confront this; but " how " is the question. What will happen as this goes forth is anybody's guess; but in the coming weeks there may also be other factors that may come into play. For it should also be noted that there are other social issues such as " mental health " that are linked to this social discussion that are going to come up; and that is also understood in a general sense I think. But some of the parents and spouses from these horrific tragedies are now starting to get involved at a more serious level because they are motivated by the " Death " of their children and loved ones and that in itself is a very powerful " common bond or human connection " that could help to build a bridge for both sides to cross in their exchanges of ideas that could make a real difference in this debate. :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

James Wrote:
But the society cannot just let this continue down the same path in my view.
Yes, that is my view as well. (Among noted others such as H.G. Wells and C.G. Jung from what I’ve read)

But where do we go from here? It seems like everything I read and learn from history points to the notion that humanity, once again, is happily skipping down the death spiral into an oblivion of chaos, confusion, and collapse. How many times does this have to happen? Even the Gospel of Thomas has a little too much “reaping” and not enough “sowing” for my liking.

But then again, if man is doing the sowing, he can only reap what he sows.
About promoting “fear " and "demonizing compromise“ at the expense of the public's welfare.
Yes, and this is a very profitable institution.
To me at the deeper roots of much these kinds of political stalemates lies " Campaign Finance Reform "; because until this is addressed; both parties are held hostage within it's grip. And just like the issues you have pointed out; that is the master they will serve; ( unless ); there is a huge public outcry for change which can only be accomplished by engagement.
But how much public outcry is required? We are already at an impasse were a very few people with a “let them eat cake” mentality are controlling the voting process. We all know where this typically leads.
Yes this is not a pleasant or encouraging situation is it? But I think part of the reason this mess is getting worse is because the general public's perception is being manipulated by the political " spin " and isn't really informed enough yet to come to a general consensus.
Agree 100%. “First they’ll take your guns away, then they’ll come for you.”
You have stated earlier that you are not sure if a Public Conversation ( can ) take place because of the present circumstances; and I am saying that it ( must ) take place for anything to change. If both sides just leave things as they are and retreat back into their comfort zones as if this is going to go away; I think this issue is going to keep getting worse; a lot worse.
Yes, but they’ll be getting richer; a lot richer. And that is also something that “must” happen.
Some of the parents and spouses from these horrific tragedies are now starting to get involved at a more serious level because they are motivated by the " Death " of their children and loved ones and that is a very powerful " common humanity connection " on both sides that can make a real difference in this debate.
Here is an excerpt from 1984:
‘We control life, Winston, at all its levels. You are imagining
that there is something called human nature which
will be outraged by what we do and will turn against us. But
we create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable. Or
perhaps you have returned to your old idea that the proletarians
or the slaves will arise and overthrow us. Put it out
of your mind. They are helpless, like the animals. Humanity
is the Party. The others are outside—irrelevant.’

‘I don’t care. In the end they will beat you. Sooner or later
they will see you for what you are, and then they will tear
you to pieces.’

‘Do you see any evidence that that is happening? Or any
reason why it should?’

‘No. I believe it. I KNOW that you will fail. There is
something in the universe—I don’t know, some spirit, some
principle—that you will never overcome.’

‘Do you believe in God, Winston?’

‘No.’

‘Then what is it, this principle that will defeat us?’

‘I don’t know. The spirit of Man.’

‘And do you consider yourself a man?’

‘Yes.’

‘If you are a man, Winston, you are the last man. Your
kind is extinct; we are the inheritors. Do you understand
that you are ALONE? You are outside history, you are nonexistent.’
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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