Changing the mindset on how we view human interconnection

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neo;

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly this to me is where I think a lot of Joseph Campbell's themes apply. In reference to the 1984 quote I don't think the human race is as blind as the quote implies. And of course I'm not saying that you do either. If this were true and that we are all robots; then we may as well go and live in North Korea or someplace where people are so dominated that they just hang on to survive and are told what to do and how to think and how to live; etc. Joseph saw beyond that; and the human race is more than mere being and survival. Indeed we as little " automatons " wouldn't even be here on these forums having this conversation if the quote were true. But I think I see your point of how fruitless some of these things sometimes seem.

One of the things in this country for instance that seems to me to be happening is that there is this intense conflict of ideas between interpretations of a social dynamic that is an expression of how people develop their own lives. For instance some feel we are connected by a social construct or implied social contract of some kind that implies a certain moral obligation of societal responsibility; others feel that are we just independent free agents of personal growth and laissez faire capitalism in pursuit of the creation of individual wealth or political influence.

For myself I think Joseph was saying there are many aspects that we should think about that may apply here. We are in a kind of free-fall away from the older social orders because they no longer work anymore; and human society in a larger sense is evolving towards a newer way of being because that's what human evolution is all about. Cultural, sociological, psychological, and physical boundaries are starting to change; for instance think of the internet and how all of this powerful technology is affecting human life; ( communication; the exchange of ideas; the explosion of information; the expansion of the sciences and medicine, etc. ).

Does this kind of change happen all at once? ( No of course not ); and neither does the disappearance of basic human traits either. There will always be greed, hatred, ignorance, brutality, and violence, as well as the good, nurturing and compassionate aspects. But the challenge I think Joe was implying was that now we have to developed more sophisticated and powerful elements of the positive side to counteract against the darker side of that same nature; and that is not an easy thing to accomplish considering we are dealing with a whole range of issues including our own human psychology as a species and the changing of our natural environment to which we are connected.

So what I saying here is that concerning these particular issues of guns and psychological meltdowns and the safety of society is that for our moment in time we are in the midst of huge forces of change and have to find ways not only to cope but to adapt; otherwise I don't think we are going to survive. But the human spirit has always had the potential to be able to rise to a crisis if history is any indication; but there is certainly destruction and disaster along the way. Can a reasonable social understanding and outcome be extracted from this particular situation? Yes I think so if there is a willingness to find a common ground for a greater good it certainly will be a step in the right direction; but also there will more than likely be a huge struggle in that attempt and a lot of folks may suffer in the meantime. If you ask: " Is it worth the effort? Maybe a better question might be " How can we not? " :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

James,

For me, this Gospel of Thomas (GoT) quote expresses my view on the blindness of humanity.
28 Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty.

But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."
Although some people have the ability to shake off the “wine”, the majority still seems to be “under the influence.”

And this passage represents my view on social order:
102 Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat."
James Wrote:
for instance think of the internet and how all of this powerful technology is affecting human life; ( communication; the exchange of ideas; the explosion of information; the expansion of the sciences and medicine, etc. ).
Everything is relative. Technology does make the world a smaller place, but just like television, it also can be used to reinforce preferred societal concepts and make a lot of money. :?

I think your point:
There will always be greed, hatred, ignorance, brutality, and violence, as well as the good, nurturing and compassionate aspects. But the challenge I think Joe was implying was that now we have to developed more sophisticated and powerful elements of the positive side to counteract against the darker side of that same nature; and that is not an easy thing to accomplish considering we are dealing with a whole range of issues including our own human psychology as a species and the changing of our natural environment to which we are connected.
Is very similar to:
9 Jesus said, Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure.
It’s the waiting for “the good crop” to emerge that’s the hard part. :(
If you ask: " Is it worth the effort? Maybe a better question might be " How can we not? "
And yes…I also have an answer for that from the GoT.
45 Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit.

Good persons produce good from what they've stored up; bad persons produce evil from the wickedness they've stored up in their hearts, and say evil things. For from the overflow of the heart they produce evil."
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neo here is a short clip from the " Power Of Myth " that to me identifies and frames one of the major dynamics encompassing this whole issue. Not all of it; but a large part. :idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2coRpyJasg

( For some reason this clip shorts out towards the end but Joseph is able to present enough of the idea to establish the concept about living as a human being within the system and what the results are to the contrary. )
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

James,

I’ve used this clip before in past posts myself, and I don’t see any differences in viewpoint.

Joe states that the brain is a secondary organ that thinks it’s in charge; hence we have the “intellect” (or Darth Vader) which to me represents the system of man (or programmatic life) that I interpret as “Society”.

Then we have the concept of the “symbiotic system of humanity” which the brain has a tendency to ignore (instead of serving).

It is when these two systems are in conflict that a discord is created. And from my understanding, it is the symbiotic system of humanity (and life) that “wins” in the end.

Joe doesn’t seem to be addressing how society can be changed to be more in alignment with the symbiotic system. However, he does seem to imply that if it is out of alignment, then we may be in some serious trouble.

I believe Joe is stating that individually, we have the capability of living our lives in alignment with the symbiotic system even though the total society is out of alignment.

In my case, I would most certainly enjoy “tiptoeing through the tulips” if those people who are out of alignment would stop tearing up the fields for their frickin’ Fracking.

Now how do you convince the tea party mentality they need a symbiotic realignment from the dark side?
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neoplato wrote:James,

I’ve used this clip before in past posts myself, and I don’t see any differences in viewpoint.

Joe states that the brain is a secondary organ that thinks it’s in charge; hence we have the “intellect” (or Darth Vader) which to me represents the system of man (or programmatic life) that I interpret as “Society”.

Then we have the concept of the “symbiotic system of humanity” which the brain has a tendency to ignore (instead of serving).

It is when these two systems are in conflict that a discord is created. And from my understanding, it is the symbiotic system of humanity (and life) that “wins” in the end.

Joe doesn’t seem to be addressing how society can be changed to be more in alignment with the symbiotic system. However, he does seem to imply that if it is out of alignment, then we may be in some serious trouble.

I believe Joe is stating that individually, we have the capability of living our lives in alignment with the symbiotic system even though the total society is out of alignment.

In my case, I would most certainly enjoy “tiptoeing through the tulips” if those people who are out of alignment would stop tearing up the fields for their frickin’ Fracking.

Now how do you convince the tea party mentality they need a symbiotic realignment from the dark side?

Neo,

I think you are addressing 2 different aspects to this issue: ( 1 ) That of " changing minds " within the society; ( and ) 2. That of the individuals ability to " navigate " the society's dysfunctional behavior within their own personal mythical landscape. True in this case there may a disconnect between them; but the point here I think has to be " how to come up with a reasonable compromise that is doable " given the present politically " charged " atmosphere; ( and yes perception of it is most definitely being manipulated by both sides within the media ).

If you look at the " conflict of ideas " on how we deal with the escalating violence within our society and apply it is symbolic of a larger global context that is emerging within other cultures then I think this is what comes closer to your point of " symbiotic realignment ".

But Joseph's point here I believe is " not " about changing society but the " personal task " we all face in finding a way to " address this internally as individuals ". As to this specific issue about " gun violence " you can choose to negotiate within the political arena or plead your cause in the public court of ideas; but historically but as far I know that really is the only proven method that has produced any substantial results; ( unless of course it is overseen or mandated by some government or dictator). And this particular aspect or application should not be confused with an individual psychological or mythological " realization ".

So to answer your question about Tea Party " ideology "; to me the only realistic direction lies is in addressing the public's understanding of what the " concept " itself represents. This means reframing and redefining the debate. This is going to challenge the ability to see beyond all the current outdated simplistic notions of the relationship between gun ownership protection rights and how gun-violence relates to children, mental health, and the social welfare; ( and that will mean dialogue ). That is not " tiptoeing through the tulips " but will involve serious and difficult compromise for both sides to agree and at this point the only " attainable " avenue I think that is going to be available. ( Can this solve all the problems? That assumption would be naïve. ) Yes; getting past all the rhetoric and hubris will be very difficult; but eventually I think both sides will " have " to come to the table whether kicking and screaming or not.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

There are individual behaviors that grab headlines. The actual number of people affected are relatively small in comparison to the wholesale, vast numbers of raging tragedy that is hugely institutional in nature.

War and the police-penal system account for horrible results, mostly aimed at the poor and ethnic outsiders. Our system is Nazi-like. Ginormous problems never make the news. People think it is normal to discriminate, harrass, misjudge and punish.

Kiddy shootings by spoiled white boys are glamorous....literally. They hit the news. Oh, oh...whatever should be done? Seriously?!!

~ Little kids at age eight can be saved, whatever their background. After that, the system takes over when white kids get guns and dark children are incarcerated and criminalized for loitering and being noisy....that is ACTUALLY what starts real crime, BTW...not murder and mayhem. Once kids are in handcuffs for being poor kids, their lives are over. Wasted. Wholesale, en masse, invisible.

I find America wanting. The system reflects our version of hoity toity Christianity, where the outsiders are non-people and the rich have everybody by the throat. The frightened, ignorant people are arming militaristic forces against children and poor people who deserve protection and appreciation, not guns and jails.

Just because the media are fascinated by the explosive news stories does not require me to get amnesia about the BIG stuff affecting everyone. The small stuff adds to the problem...which is systemic, institutional and totally ignored.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

I came across this Carl Jung quote yesterday that seems to fit in with the issue.

From “The Secret of the Golden Flower” in CW 13.
All the greatest and most important problems of life are fundamentally insoluble. They must be so, for they express the necessary polarity inherent in every self-regulating system. They can never be solved but only outgrown.

This “outgrowing” proved on further investigation to be a new level of consciousness.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Neoplato wrote:I came across this Carl Jung quote yesterday that seems to fit in with the issue.

From “The Secret of the Golden Flower” in CW 13.
All the greatest and most important problems of life are fundamentally insoluble. They must be so, for they express the necessary polarity inherent in every self-regulating system. They can never be solved but only outgrown.

This “outgrowing” proved on further investigation to be a new level of consciousness.

Let us hope so Neo. :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

It appears as though Jung defines "big" as Insoluble, so that anything we can figure out is really not all that important.

~

What is meant by "level of consciousness"? Is a change of paradigm sufficient to produce a new level?

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

CarmelaBear wrote:It appears as though Jung defines "big" as Insoluble, so that anything we can figure out is really not all that important.

~

What is meant by "level of consciousness"? Is a change of paradigm sufficient to produce a new level?

~
I believe it is more along these lines.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
I always regarded a paradigm shift as "changing your toys".
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

This was the best insight I've seen lately that describes the world's struggle of mindset to come to terms with our ability to live together. It was in reference to the current crisis involving the Malaysian airliner MH17 that was shot down over Ukraine; but points towards the larger subject of global conflict. This I think is exactly what Joseph Campbell was talking about concerning the road ahead for the human race and a new mythology. An age old dilemma of human nature perhaps; but framed within a more modern context.

http://news.yahoo.com/bill-clinton-perp ... 12819.html
"Those who shot them down and who provided the means to do so represent the other side in our struggle to define the terms of our interdependence: the open hand against the clenched fist, inclusive politics and economics versus division and dominance, cooperation against control, life against death."
:idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

On how one woman feels about critics who crush women's creativity:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle ... va-wiseman
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

This woman is truly a great example of helping to heal the lives of both children and adults. 8)

http://news.yahoo.com/giving-away--anat ... 51799.html
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Wrenching tales. She seems to be swimming upstream.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Mario Cuomo's passing today should be a reminder that there are those moments when someone comes before us to illuminate what binds the human race to it's sense of interconnectedness; it's sense of fairness; it's understanding of the role that critical thinking plays in how we separate the larger issues of human dignity from the self-righteous economic concerns that separate, divide and control the ability of many of it's constitutes to obtain of a decent quality of life. Here was his 1984 speech that witnessed such a moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOdIqKsv624

The following critique provides some very insightful points about how we should consider it's relevance and perhaps modify some of those ideas surveying today's newer landscape. And if we turn our thoughts to ponder some of Joseph Campbell's insights about any sort of new global mythic vision perhaps it might also be worthwhile to include some of this content as well. :idea:

http://news.yahoo.com/the-legacy-of-mar ... 48324.html
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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