Power and Human Interaction

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Power and Human Interaction

Post by JamesN. »

Nermin has brought up a topic that may be of interest for discussion that came about on the " Tolkien and Campbell thread "; which is the subject of " Power " and Human Interaction " And since this area ( as a subject itself ) did not really directly relate to the theme covered there I thought it might provide another avenue for looking at how human interaction and the struggle for identity might relate to Joseph Campbell's themes.

I will start with what seemed to me the three quotes that led directly into her line of inquiry as a starting place and see if this provides any thoughtful insight.


Nermin said
I think what I found bothersome was poet Frodo's emprise with the Ring that I
read as an apologue of temptationn about power and about facing his shadow.
That befuddled me and I asked myself the following; can-we say that power is 'bad'
inherently?
Or, is-that only because some of us don't know how to manage it?

And also:
Basically, I'm asking the following to myself; can-we evade power (relations)
and still survive? Can-we ever make and live without some sense of power?
Or, is-this an inevitable fate for humankind since we started to think that we
surpassed Animal Kingdom with analytical thinking abilities or tool-making?

And finally to begin; this:
let-me start with this; life has a political dimension and there seems to be
a political (power-oriented) aspect in most social interaction. All struggle and all
debate is more or less power-oriented. Isn't-it true?
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I will start by referring to two quotes I made from which this line of thought seemed to me to proceed:

As is often pointed out; the idea of power in and of itself is extremely intoxicating. For example in the quote: " Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely ".


And from Carl Jung:
Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.
Carl Jung, "On the Psychology of the Unconciousness", 1917
I think much of Joseph Campbell's themes seem to me to take a psychological position of being aware of the dangers inherent of basic human instinct towards abuse of this dimension in the malipulation of human beings towards each other; ( to refer to it in a simplistic way ). And so much of his connection to Carl Jung's theories have to do with understanding and management of these tendencies. But also at a deeper behavioral level of trying to get at the ( causes ) as well as the social dynamic. And also since there is a ( competitive instinct ) in the evolution of the personality and development of the individual's self-identity you also have this basic drive that is also part of what we might call inherent human nature.

And as the consciousness of the individual begins to become more aware in it's developement; the level of competence in handling these complex emotions evolves to a more empathetic or compassionate and sensitive output in blending with the competitive drive for achievement or domination in it's expression of a self-responsible adult.

So if I am understanding your question I would say " Yes " there is a basic instinctual inclination of gravitating towards the use of " Power "; but it is how we handle and utilize it that determines whether it becomes negative.

That is my take on it at the moment; ( although perhaps a little lacking in articulation ).

Perhaps others have thoughts here.

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Nermin;

I feel as though I owe you an apology for my first reply to your question. It has come to me upon further examination that my understanding of " Apologue " was inaccurate and indeed you had a very insightful understanding of " Frodo's dilemma ". And as I have mentioned before about being no authority on " Tolkien "; it also seems at an even deeper level this question is implied and woven throughout the context of the story itself. IMHO this adds even more depth to application of the " Monomyth " that Joseph Campbell stressed throught his work. And it was in this understanding the implication to me is: ( the hero's evolution of overcoming the dark seductive and negative forces, influences, and inclinations within himself, his society, and the frailty of the human condition within which we all must contend is one of the messages here ). If I am understanding correctly; I think your concern addressed this issue.

A very valid question for all societies in any day or age; ( no )?

Nermin said
I think what I found bothersome was poet Frodo's emprise with the Ring that I
read as an apologue of temptationn about power and about facing his shadow.
That befuddled me and I asked myself the following; can-we say that power is 'bad'
inherently?
Or, is-that only because some of us don't know how to manage it?

I might add that one should be aware that wikipedia is not always the most reliable source for information or reference; ( but I must admit I do use it ). And this description is quite in depth and seems to fit this application rather well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologue

Having said all that I really do think this is the proper place for this discussion about " Power " as a separate topic. The problem arises when discussion starts to venture off topic; and then the concerns of the ( forum guidelines ) come in. Staying on the subject is pretty important; especially if it is someone elses thread. It is a little unclear in these conversations sometimes where those boundaries are because; as you know; " we all " wander off course now and then. ( I know I do. ) :wink:


Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

Thank you, James; I prefer not to post from cellphone because it's not easy to make editing but just wanted
to let you know that İ'm following these topics :-)
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

ALOberhoulser
Associate
Posts: 2952
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:00 am
Location: Delphi
Contact:

Post by ALOberhoulser »

Mythologies: The Complete Edition, in a New Translation
by Roland Barthes - http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15793643-mythologies

the website is giving away a few copies of a new translation
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17375979-mythologies

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

Heeey,
I think what I found bothersome was poet Frodo's emprise with the Ring that I
read as an apologue of temptationn about power and about facing his shadow.
That befuddled me and I asked myself the following; can-we say that power is 'bad'
inherently?
Or, is-that only because some of us don't know how to manage it? - Nermin
The whole point Tolkien was trying to make with Lord of the Rings is, that power cannot be controlled, it controls us. The ring of power had a will of its own..

I like the concept of the hero as an outcast. The hero returns and brings the boon back but there is no place for him or her in the society.

That is the story of power. You become what you fight and although the hero saves society, at the same time there is no place for him in it.

Well at least that is how I interpret it.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey Andreas; a nice complement to Nermin's original questions you're offering.

As I mentioned earlier I really think this topic deserves it's own thread because even though it was brought up concerning Tolkien's themes it has many faces or directions in which it could be considered. I'll lay out a couple of areas; ( and these are only a few ); to broaden the canvas with a little then start with some I think might apply within your context.

First of all; I think you have to start with not only how one defines the term but the application to which the context is assigned. Is power the influence or the ( control ) it commands; or is it the object within itself? Is it the value one assigns to it or is it a device to manipulate or even an instrument for change? For instance is the " Ring of Tolkien " the same as the " Fire of Prometheus "? Can it's consideration be only the negative of corruption or can it be the goal won from the hero's quest?

Two; the perimeters you start with are excellent examples of regularly used themes or motifs through which it's value can be assigned and utilized to prove a point; whether in ( Lord of The Rings, Star Wars, Shakespeare's Tragedies, Aesop's Fables ) or indeed any other literary vehicle used to convey a meaning with this applied as a ( catalyst ) is my point here. Money or wealth; political influence, sex; fire, explosive energy, or even water, food or medicine can be facilitated or engineered as such; but the plots you offer are standard motifs and work just fine.

In " Lord of The Rings " there are a couple of excellent examples that show the full effect of the seductive and toxic effects of it's corruptive influence. Of course Frodo's gradual decline as struggles to complete his quest; ( and even early on in the story when Bilbo Baggins who for a brief moment lapses under it's influence while showing the " Ring " to Frodo ); as do all who fall under it's spell. But in this light one of the best examples is " Gollum "; originally known as " Sméagol "; who has become transformed into this grotesque mutation of his former self.

And as you point out in the typical hero character of " outcast " or " Maverick " and this role that the hero assumes; he or she becomes the bearer of " The Boon " that saves society but could also be portrayed as a doctor or scientist or artist who wins or finds a place within his community from which he had been in exile. ( A lot of variables that could be applied here in this one ).

But yes I take your point only I think it might be widened a bit. For instance we could go into " Star Wars " and how the growing threat of power from the Emperor over Darth Vader becomes part of the vehicle through " The Quest "; of salvation for both Anakin and Luke Skywalker. ( Assignment of the role that power plays ) has just as much to do with it's definition is my point here; so I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your basic premise; just enlarging it. And although there certainly may be other areas to consider; this is just for openers. Shakespeare; the Greek Tragedies or any such similar literary scenarios like " Faust " for example; would be only a few of many good possibilities here.


Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

What we are exiled from is the life of innocence.

The story of Star Wars shows us that we gain a life when we disengage or like Campbell said when we resist the impersonal claims of society.

The story of Lord of the Rings shows us what happens when we engage in the impersonal claims of society.

For if Luke had engaged his father he would have become the villain too.

In my book you either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain. I stole that from The Dark Knight. And that is the tragedy of the hero that tries to engage.

:D
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:What we are exiled from is the life of innocence.

The story of Star Wars shows us that we gain a life when we disengage or like Campbell said when we resist the impersonal claims of society.

The story of Lord of the Rings shows us what happens when we engage in the impersonal claims of society.

For if Luke had engaged his father he would have become the villain too.

In my book you either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain. I stole that from The Dark Knight. And that is the tragedy of the hero that tries to engage.

:D

" Assignment " was my point Andreas. Again I'm not disagreeing with your premise only " enlarging " it. There is more than one than one point of view or lense ( to look through or apply this ) was what I was saying. :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

I am not saying you disagreeing James. Just thought I clear up a bit my own point of view and how I think "power" relates to our life story or my life for that matter. :)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:I am not saying you disagreeing James. Just thought I clear up a bit my own point of view and how I think "power" relates to our life story or my life for that matter. :)

Thank you Andreas; I wasn't quite sure.

Incidentally I believe the point you make about raising consciousness is a good one. Joseph Campbell brings this up time and again throughout his work. It puts the trajectory of the understanding on a higher plane than just the narrow focus of the morality of right and wrong I think. His point if I'm applying this correctly; is about " life wisdom " and not just behavior modification or adjustment.

Perhaps I'm overstating this a bit but moral issues in this context are all too often more narrowly defined parameters for viewpoints; and have a tendency to cloud the context sometimes. Viewing power within this type of focus limits the overview from it's broader scope. For instance if you take " War and Peace " or " Don Quixote " as well as " Lord of the Rings " and apply the viewpoint of man's struggle to deal with power's abuse " metaphorically "; then the consciousness raising brought about and illuminated through their character development allows you to gain more insight about the sense of life's tragedy that we " all " share as a human community; than any particular " good and evil " scenario.

( Now I'm saying this in a broad and generalized sense; so don't misunderstand the application I'm trying to get at. ) It's just to me I think much of the mythic landscape that indeed Joseph Campbell, Tolkien, Tolstoy, Cervantes, or any of the other great literary works refers to have these insights pointed more in this direction and delievered with a broader brush stoke if you will; of life lessons shared; not just a limited demonizing of the moral. ( Now I'm certainly not stating that this was your position. ) But your reference to this larger world stage upon which these stories play out I think better defines power's role. ( I hope I haven't muddied up too much what I was trying to clarify with this. ) But being the hard-wired emotional creatures that we are makes it difficult sometimes to get away from this narrowed viewpoint and that is what I'm saying here.

Anyway; just something else to consider along with the topic. :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

Exercise of power is about many things, and in America today, it is about demography and ideology. Republicans are spread out in more suburban and rural areas. Democrats are largely concentrated in urban. This has no historical precedent and tends to make shoe-economics of Republicans in Congress and Democrats in the White House.

More economic and social equality is found in Republican-run areas. The poorest areas of the country, with the most crushing defeat of the middle class and the greatest rate of poverty and increase in wealth is in Democratic-run areas.

Texas communities allow more income and social equality than you find in California, where most people are either rich or relegated to abject servitude.

The demographics of the U.S. has changed radically with each surge in immigration. Between the early 1980's and about 2007, illegal immigration from Latin America hit a peak with the influx of millions of low skill workers. Today, the numbers are near zero and starting to move in reverse with Americans moving to Latin America.

Actual power activity rarely models the work of literary and academic approaches to this subject, and I believe this is related to the demographics and ideology of those who participate and dominate such endeavors. There is an inherent bias in population concentrations and the resulting point of view represented by the experience and interpretation of that experience by the people involved.

If income inequality is a concern to Democrats, then we need stop hating and punishing people like me, who are rejected for our aspirations and our now-destroyed middle class status.

I cannot become Republican and move to Texas, but I can bitterly criticize the liberal Democrats for single-mindedly excluding me from economic and political power.

Yes, I want to earn money and exercise power.

I do not believe that any status I represent or any mistakes I ever made in the past should be used as grounds to discourage me in whatever future I have left. Why did this country give me an Ivy League education and then leave me stranded in a low-wage, powerless, servile job? For what exactly and precisely am I being punished?

Is it the rape? Have I been banished for having been despoiled and speaking openly about it? If that is true, I am prepared to turn my wrath against this mighty nation and teach my country a hard lesson in equality.

Mark my words.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

CarmelaBear
Associate
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:51 pm
Location: The Land of Enchantment

Post by CarmelaBear »

To understand power, you have to study the lack or loss of it. Helplessness is a universal experience, and our lives can be radically altered by the devastation humans must suffer as a consequence of natural and behavioral sources of powerlessness.

For example, extreme poverty can leave a person unable to claim one's own body for the sense of self, and there are a million ways from Sunday for one to be born into powerlessness. One's body can be a source of energy for a family. One's labor, one's sexuality, one's associations and parenthood can be tools for dominant others. Lack of support can result in loss of children. This is a global lack of personal power. The consequences for both the individual and society can be absolutely horrible.

The one social change most related to a drop in crime in America was one event: the decision in Roe v. Wade that decriminalized abortion. This one event empowered both women and men, relieving one of the most important pressures we encounter. To reduce crime, decriminalization of drugs will have a similar effect.

Another example is when a loved one is subjected to disease or violent conduct, one feels helpless to a point of experiencing extreme emotion and developing terrible defenses.

It is in this context that individual powers of the body and mind are regarded as the norm, and anything less is a serious threat to the capacity to function in a healthy way. Once an extreme, radical loss or set of losses have been experienced, it is appropriate to respond with a drive to protect against the feeling of vulnerability. Especially for young children, that feeling is known to be the impetus for genius and talent. It tends to focus the mind. One claims protection from loss and finds a safe place to don the ring of privacy, and fill the emptiness with something captivating and productive. The capacity to extend human abilities can arise from a drive to transcend the experience of profound loss.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I saw this news article this morning and it represents to me one of the absolute worst examples of tyranny and abuses of power I can think of. :evil:

http://news.yahoo.com/north-korea-publi ... 55520.html

I sure hope there is an outcry from the " Global Community " against this for to let it go unanswered would be unconscionable and an invitation for more of this sinister, barbaric, and brutal behavior. :!:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

captsunshine
Associate
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:03 am
Location: Maveli Land

Post by captsunshine »

There are no absolutes in yardstick that you use to qualify any action.
Rights and Wrongs, are mind constructs, that arise from the delusion, that makes you believe in absolute nature of this world.
The system will correct itself...
Trouble is we all want it to happen in our wee lifetime.
If you want to intervene, do so at the risk of creating more imbalance into a state that is already in a flux.
Breathe.
Non-violence ... requires greater heroism than of brave soldiers ... The world does not accept today the idea of loving the enemy. Even in Christian Europe the principle of non-violence is ridiculed ... Christians do not understand the message of Jesus. It is necessary to deliver it over again in the way we can understand ...

- Gandhi - speech -1925

Locked