The New Hero: Individuation & "Hero's Journey"

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JamesN.
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The New Hero: Individuation & "Hero's Journey"

Post by JamesN. »

Question: What is the ( relationship ) between Joseph Campbell's concept or definition of " The Hero's Journey " and Carl Jung's concept or definition of the process of " Individuation "?
I took this quote from the " Joseph Campbell and The Hero's Journey " teaching thread in this forum because I believe that I have found an article that our resident ( Jungian ) moderator Cindy has posted that I think perfectly frames this topic in it's proper context as relates to this often generalized idea. It is an important subject and relationship that is not only central to Joseph Campbell's theme of the " Monomyth " but is becoming increasingly relevant in modern life in the individual's struggle to understand themselves, their world, and their inner-conflicts as they try to clarify their identity and their own individual search for meaning in a world that is becoming increasingly complex and nebulous to navigate.

What makes this article unique is the way it helps redefine the understanding and interpretation of what not only the modern hero is; but indeed the journey itself; in this increasingly ever-changing new paradigm that the modern individual now must face.

http://jungiancenter.org/essay/jungs-he ... rm-heroism
Last edited by JamesN. on Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by JamesN. »

First let us look at some differences that are drawn as to the distinctions that can be made between the old and new versions of what the hero might be. From the article:

To Start:
-----------------

The New Form of Heroism

But the hero for our time does have this interest. He or she responds to our crises, but does so in a new, more interior form. The table below lays out the differences between our current sense of hero and Jung’s hero.

a.) The Old Hero:

Difference

b.)( The New Hero: )




a.) has physical courage

Difference

b.) ( has moral courage )




a.) has an external orientation

Difference

b.) ( has an internal orientation that has an impact on both the inner and outer life )




a.) confronts physical danger(s): fire, guns, falling buildings etc.

Difference

b.) ( confronts inner fearsome realities: the shadow, complexes, the daimon (his/her creative force), the Self, the inner darkness )




a.) typical activities:

enduring physical hardship, fighting, rescuing, giving first aid, spontaneous acts that put his/her life in danger

Difference

b.) ( typical activities:

enduring psychic hardship (e.g. feeling inept, anguished, confused); holding steady to connect with inner energies; holding the tension of opposites; dream work (remembering, recording and working with dreams); active imagination; meditation; noting synchronicities in outer life
)




a.) these activities are noted by others and often rewarded

Difference

b.) ( these activities are often not noticed by others; if noticed (e.g. by family or friends) they often are criticized or ridiculed )




a.) expends physical energy in the heroic act resulting in the need for R&R

Difference

b.) ( expends psychic energy in working in the unconscious, resulting in initial fatigue but greater energy later, as repression lessens and the energy that went into repressing unconscious contents is freed up for living )




a.) results: saves a life or lives

Difference

b.) ( results: moves toward individuation, opens life up, makes living more fulfilling, joyous and successful; creates more consciousness; affects others, not always in ways they appreciate; can make people uncomfortable, as the hero perturbs the field within which others (especially family and close friends) live )




a.) preserves the status quo, or operates with no thought of changing the status quo

Difference

b.) ( recognizes the problems in our current reality and works for change )




a.) does not contribute to raising the level of our collective consciousness

Difference

b.) ( contributes to raising the level of our collective consciousness )

----------------

From the article the context in which this may apply:


The Nature of Our Time

But Jung and Campbell recognize that there is another type of hero, a type for our time, now evolving in response to current crises—crises that are not so obvious as earthquakes, tsunamis, or other disasters. These crises are cultural and are reflected in what Joseph Campbell has called “the collapse of the timeless universe of symbols.” It is in response to this grave situation that a new form of hero is emerging.

A previous essay on this blog site spoke of the crucial role played by symbols, and how our world is now jeopardized by the loss of the “symbolic life.” We live in a society that no longer supports the gods, with social units no longer centered around religion but around economic and political organizations. Our focus now, as a global culture, is on competition for “material supremacy and resources,” and this materialistic focus has led to the decay of the arts, morality and ritual.

In such an environment, the individual person faces some serious dilemmas. With the lines of communication between conscious mind and the unconscious having been cut, the modern person has been split, cut in two. Living in a spiritual darkness, he/she has little impetus and few goals beyond getting ahead, “making a living” and getting to a retirement that may not actually ever materialize (given the bankruptcy of both the nation and our societal values). Lacking a deep sense of meaning in life, unaware of the true meaning of life, modern people find it hard to get past the “local threshold guardians” that serve to divide us—e.g. nationality, patriotism, and sectarianism. Mired deeply in the materialism that is the driving force of our time, the average person has little awareness of, much less interest in working with the unconscious and mining its resources to enrich his/her life.

--------------

( And also in application how one might understand this interplay ):


As the opening quote from Jung indicates, the new form of heroism occurs amid the banalities of life, and as such, it is not very obvious: “chopping wood and carrying water” have little glamour, but when done while wrestling with one’s inner demons such simple activities make severe demands on the hero to be patient, devoted, persevering and self-sacrificing. The new heroism does not shine. It does not get praise. It requires humility and spurns public acknowledgement, which is a good thing, because rarely is this form of heroism even visible, and when it is, few people recognize it as heroism: they are more likely to think of it as “weird,” perhaps even incomprehensible. “Why wrestle with inner demons?” people are likely to ask. Or they may reply as one of my cousins did to me, when she learned I worked with my dreams: “That’s the stupidest thing I ever heard of!”

Stupid. Incomprehensible to those oriented to contemporary culture, because--as the above quote from Joseph Campbell indicates—this form of heroism is working at a different level from consciousness. It is not active on the outer level of the ego and the conscious mind, but works in the unconscious, in the depths of one’s humanity, as the person undertakes the spiritual journey toward individuation. Jung’s hero lives on two levels simultaneously: the interior level of soul and unconscious, and the outer level of ego consciousness, the level that is set in our collective reality, with all the challenges of our world. As I noted above, this new form of heroism is closely tied to the crises of our time, and is evolving in response to them. Specifically, the new hero is transmuting the whole social order, by working on him/herself. By becoming conscious of the unconscious, by facing his/her shadow, by discovering the “inner city” that lies within, by encountering the Self and then enduring the “defeats” that are an inevitable consequence of this confrontation, the hero steps out of the mainstream and takes on the hero’s mantle. And in ways that our disempowering society finds hard to believe, these nearly-invisible acts of heroism can change the world.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now I would not suggest that anyone else would necessarily agree with these viewpoints but I would offer that the implications that are expressed here dramatically differ with most common held notions. I know that speaking for myself this certainly gave me a huge wakeup call for how I look at things.

( And also I would add that there is more in the article I did not include that expands on these themes. But these were to me the ones that seem to address most of the major areas I find that I grapple with. ) At least this will be a starting place.


Namaste :idea:
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Post by Neoplato »

Here are a few observations concerning the article from my perspective.

I’m not too certain that I necessarily agree with the term “old hero” and “new hero” as it is being used in the article. The description for the “old hero” appears to be what society teaches us how a hero should act. It also appears to assume an “us and them” mentality; a hero must arise to protect the innocent and the way of life of society. I don’t feel this is the case reflected in the “old myths” of ancient times. This type of Superman/Batman concept seems to me to be the “New Hero.”

Whereas the older mythological hero must undergo a rigorous internal torment in order to build moral courage, mental fortitude, and selfless devotion. This is a long-term, arduous, and unrecognized journey alone, with no external rewards or gratification. But it is only through this bodily purification can the person perform a true act of heroism and raise the level of consciousness.

Anyone can perform an act of chivalry, but only a true hero can truly “slay the dragon.” :wink:
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Post by JamesN. »

Neoplato wrote:Here are a few observations concerning the article from my perspective.

I’m not too certain that I necessarily agree with the term “old hero” and “new hero” as it is being used in the article. The description for the “old hero” appears to be what society teaches us how a hero should act. It also appears to assume an “us and them” mentality; a hero must arise to protect the innocent and the way of life of society. I don’t feel this is the case reflected in the “old myths” of ancient times. This type of Superman/Batman concept seems to me to be the “New Hero.”

Whereas the older mythological hero must undergo a rigorous internal torment in order to build moral courage, mental fortitude, and selfless devotion. This is a long-term, arduous, and unrecognized journey alone, with no external rewards or gratification. But it is only through this bodily purification can the person perform a true act of heroism and raise the level of consciousness.

Anyone can perform an act of chivalry, but only a true hero can truly “slay the dragon.” :wink:

Neo; I agree with much of your position if I understand you correctly. I will add though that I think the conditions of the mental and emotional dynamics that dictate the landscape have changed in terms of modern requirements to some degree. This has to do not only with what you identify as " The Dragon " you are slaying; but also what you define as " the change " you are seeking from the act. ( Although in a general sense I'm not sure if we aren't more or less in agreement. )

On another thread Cindy and I were discussing the difference between the model that Lance Armstrong represents as society interpretes a hero; and how Carl Jung's ( individuating model ) of the hero; is more of a clarifying example of what Joseph Campbell was getting at. Your point of " the job " the hero performs changes only in the aspect that he turns his attention on correcting and slaying the dragon as ( reflected in himself ). ( Although the case can also be made in certain circumstances that; ( say in the case of someone like Martin Luther King ); his " scarifice " for humanity's higher good is definitely a hero's deed; but it would be different from that of Lance Armstrong's self-glorification of celebrity; regardless of the athletic achievement. )

But the article in my mind has to do more with a change of definition ( in one sense ) of the hero's role; and that would be to one of a different psyghological position, perspective, and interpretation. Or to say it another way; a role of process or to be even more precise that of " Individuation "; and it's relationship to " The Hero's Journey ". ( This is the focus of what I am trying to address. )
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Post by Clemsy »

James, the one thing I got from the Myth and Psyche paper that Cindy shared with us is that individuation is the goal of what I tell my students is The Big Hero Journey. Life is filled with hero journeys of all kinds, but your life is the big one and individuation is the objective. I had known this, but that paper really drove it home.

I don't think there's an old and new hero. There's the physical hero and the psycho-spiritual hero.

We're all the hero in our own story. Always have been, always will be. The classic hero, like Perseus, is only a physical hero on the surface. All those stories are allegories for the psycho-spiritual pursuit of the fully integrated self, at least from where I stand, and I do believe from where Jung and Campbell also stood.

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Post by JamesN. »

Clemsy,

What I was addressing from this article was this more " inward directed focus " of the hero's journey; not the ( nature ) of the hero's " quest ". It's " charactor " is in itself the same; but as Joesph Campbell himself stated: " We are in a freefall " or paradigm in relationship with what a new mythology will evolve towards. This speaks to that condition and landscape in which the hero now finds himself. The technological changes that have taken place within the lifetime many of us have lived has been enormous; and the symbols which informed people and have constillated their spiritual values have become what Joseph Campbell referred to in ( POM ) as a: " kind of terminal moraine ". ( I do not disagree with your point about the hero's transformation. Indeed now more than ever the " Furies " of the Greek Myths are still with us to be dealt with. ) But I do not think the architecture they are in and the costumes they wear are the same. Perhaps it is more of a question that the eternal roles they play over timeless ground are the same; but the script and dialogue have been " modified " to a more modern application. ( At least it seems that way to me; for I also think we are all the heros of our own story. )

From the article:
The Nature of Our Time

But Jung and Campbell recognize that there is another type of hero, a type for our time, now evolving in response to current crises—crises that are not so obvious as earthquakes, tsunamis, or other disasters. These crises are cultural and are reflected in what Joseph Campbell has called “the collapse of the timeless universe of symbols.” It is in response to this grave situation that a new form of hero is emerging.

A previous essay on this blog site spoke of the crucial role played by symbols, and how our world is now jeopardized by the loss of the “symbolic life.” We live in a society that no longer supports the gods, with social units no longer centered around religion but around economic and political organizations. Our focus now, as a global culture, is on competition for “material supremacy and resources,” and this materialistic focus has led to the decay of the arts, morality and ritual.

In such an environment, the individual person faces some serious dilemmas. With the lines of communication between conscious mind and the unconscious having been cut, the modern person has been split, cut in two. Living in a spiritual darkness, he/she has little impetus and few goals beyond getting ahead, “making a living” and getting to a retirement that may not actually ever materialize (given the bankruptcy of both the nation and our societal values). Lacking a deep sense of meaning in life, unaware of the true meaning of life, modern people find it hard to get past the “local threshold guardians” that serve to divide us—e.g. nationality, patriotism, and sectarianism. Mired deeply in the materialism that is the driving force of our time, the average person has little awareness of, much less interest in working with the unconscious and mining its resources to enrich his/her life.
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cindy B. »

It may help to simply consider Mehrten's article as an introduction to the individuating hero for any new to the notion. :)


So according to Campbell, only 999 heroic faces more to go. :P
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Post by JamesN. »

I said:
What I was addressing from this article was this more " inward directed focus " of the hero's journey; not the ( nature ) of the hero's " quest ". It's " charactor " is in itself the same; but as Joesph Campbell himself stated: " We are in a freefall " or paradigm in relationship with what a new mythology will evolve towards. This speaks to that condition and landscape in which the hero now finds himself. The technological changes that have taken place within the lifetime many of us have lived has been enormous; and the symbols which informed people and have constillated their spiritual values have become what Joseph Campbell referred to in ( POM ) as a: " kind of terminal moraine ". ( I do not disagree with your point about the hero's transformation. Indeed now more than ever the " Furies " of the Greek Myths are still with us to be dealt with. ) But I do not think the architecture they are in and the costumes they wear are the same.p Perhaps it is more of a question that the eternal roles they play over timeless ground are the same; but the script and dialogue have been " modified " to a more modern application. ( At least it seems that way to me; for I also think we are all the heros of our own story. )
I came across a piece of dialogue from an old " M.A.S.H. " TV episode that frames part of the issue defined as what I would call " the struggle of the individuating hero " put in a proper although " dramatic " type of context with which to illustrate an example of what I am trying to address. ( My apologies to those not familiar with this series and the characters for this scene dialogue listed below may seem somewhat obscure. )

If one were to use Jesus, The Buddha, Perseus; Don Quixote, The Divine Comedy, War and Peace, The Hobbit and Lord of The Rings, or any other type of standard mythical or literary " motif " to represent the internal struggles that the modern individual must face in the age old scritpt of birth through life towards death these are indeed iconic metaphors of experience. But I think a more accurate framework in which to understand the landscape, it's context, and the dilemma the modern individual now faces can be seen through a different type of lense. ( For instance using " Star Wars " as a newer costume to update the hero's journey storyline might be one aspect of a larger dimensional and constellated universe. However this device in itself is not new at all by any means as pertains to the goal of the plot or the life course to which the monomyth addresses. And indeed the model of the hero's journey is even more relevant now than ever before for the times in which we live. But my point of emphasis here has to do with the larger need for a different kind of " individuated directed focus " utlized as a lense to view the process through; ( if you will ); as a more updated requirement in this journey.

Modern evolutionary developement in many of it's various forms such as technology; have alienated the human individual in numerous ways not only from the natural environment of which he is a part; but also from his connection to his other fellow human beings such as witnessed in the rise of materialism. More and more of this alienated disconnect is displayed in the acts of violent psycholoical dysfunctional behavior expressed in multiple global news events reported by mass media and then manipulated for either political or monetary advantage.

This requirement of a shift towards inward focus I believe has a direct connection to part of the sociological changes manifested by this evolutionary trajectory. And the developement of an ( individual internal navigational system ) for the hero's journey through this kind of invisible geography and internal landscape deals precisely with much of what IMHO Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung were pointing towards in the understanding of following a type of instinctual or intuitive " compass " used in the guidance of the individual through the inevitable crisis of a lifetime. Not just in the form of self-realization and self-actualzation; but also with the type of lense and focus one might utilize in it's achievement.

For each of us there is a path or " Marga " as I am told; that we follow. If we are fortunate we hear it's call; ( or as in the opposite that Joe has alluded to; " those who have stopped listening to themselves and risk a schizophrenic crackup. " ). If I may suggest; this is a humble effort in that direction; and not an attempt at anything more. :wink:

The dialogue below has an introductory clip from the actor and director " Alan Alda " concerning the background; ( which by the way was nominated for an " Emmy " ). This portion of the plot has to do with " psychological healing " in the midst of chaos and turmoil involving a visit to a wartime field hospital, a surgery session, a practical joke, a poker game; and the observations of an army psychiatrist in a letter to " Sigmond Freud " as self-theropy. ( What does this episode show us? ): It shows human beings groping to make sense out of chaos. And by trying to digest and assimilate their experience to get meaning; and from their acts of compassion they are in some way able to navigate their way back to their sense of connection or understanding of their own humanity. " IMHO ": " the individuating hero ".

I have also included a couple of Joseph Campbell clips for the topic relationship as well. ( And again to be clear ); this not about changing the definition of the hero's journey; but about ( enlargement of the understanding of the context ) " through which this dynamic is expressed " and ( the " role " that this " individuating struggle " plays as a " component " in this process ).


( Here are the two Joseph Campbell clips to help with the context ):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExiRGrIKlwM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgOUxICC ... sZoRn3jeAg


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

( Here is a quick collection of short scenes of the series with Dr. Sidney Freedman in various sketches to give an idea of his charactor and the M.A.S.H. backdrop. ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj-4CKegHLQ

The link to Alan Alda's descrition of the episode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z1Oh0H0oXg


Dr. Sidney Freedman, feeling depressed, visits the 4077th to observe how they fare under the pressures of war. He begins a letter to Sigmund Freud as a form of self-therapy, and releases his tension in the form of a practical joke with B.J., aimed at Frank Burns.


analysis of 4077th.

( The scene setup )
(Sidney said he came out to the 4077th because he was losing patients)

Letter:
Sidney: As you pointed out, Sigmund, there's a link between anger and wit. Anger turned inward is depression. Anger turned sideways is Hawkeye.

( Surgical scene )
Dialogue:(Capt. Hathaway gets a look at a surgical procedure in the O.R. on a little girl)
Hathaway: What happened?
Hawkeye: Somebody dropped a bomb on her village from an airplane.
Hathaway: Who did it?
Hawkeye: He just dropped it. He didn't autograph it.
Hathaway: No, I mean, was it one of theirs or one of ours?
Potter: What difference does that make?
Hathaway: A lot. It makes a lot of difference.
Potter: Not to her.
(Hathaway walks out of the O.R. stunned, Hawkeye goes out to join him)
Hathaway: You brought me in there on purpose, didn't you?
Hawkeye: Yep.
Hathaway: You're a real S.O.B., you know that?
Hawkeye: Look, you seem like a decent guy, too decent to think that this can be anything like a clean war.
Hathaway: From up there it is... (breaks down into tears) was. God, she's just a little baby!


Letter:
Sidney: The inmates have an interesting defense against carnage. Insanity in the service of health.


( Practical Joke scene )
Dialogue:
(Sidney finds BJ filling an air raid shelter with water)
Sidney: You? You're the practical joker?
BJ: Certainly looks that way, doesn't it? Would you like to help?
Sidney: (excited) Sure! What do I do?
BJ: As loud as you can, shout, 'Air raid.'
Sidney: (after a brief laugh) Air raid! Air Raid!
Frank: Air raid!! (leaps out of bed and runs out of the Swamp in a panic) Air raid! Air raid! (falls into the hole filled with water)


( Later in confidence )
(Sidney tells Hawkeye and BJ about his patient that committed suicide)

Dialogue:
Hawkeye: Sidney, we all lose patients.
Sidney: Actually, the straw that broke my back was a kid who was hearing voices telling him to kill himself. After some time with him, he got very quiet, sometimes thats a sign they've made up their minds. Only somehow, I missed it. And then that night, after we all went to sleep, that sweet, innocent, troubled kid... listened to the voices.


( Poker game )
(Klinger tries to sell his hoop earrings at the poker game)
BJ: Klinger, don't you think hoops are a little trashy before breakfast?
Klinger: If I thought it'd get me out, I'd wear hula hoops in my ear

Frank: (to Sidney) I happen to believe in the sanctity of marriage--no matter how ugly or disgusting it gets.

(Father Mulcahy has dozed off during a poker game)
Mulcahy: I had the most extraordinay dream. I was a Cardinal in Rome, and the Pope had a bad cold.
Hawkeye: What do you suppose that means, Sidney? You're the skull jockey.
Sidney: Well, Freud said every dream is a wish.
Radar: One time my uncle dreamt he was dancing with a whale and when he woke up, our cow had eaten his pants.
BJ: Do you wanna bet, or do you want Sidney to tell you what that means?
Radar: Oh geez, I'm sorry, I didn't know it meant anything.

(as Sidney is about to leave)
BJ: See you at the game next week?
Sidney: Yes, I'll be here with twenty dollars in my pants and three aces up my sleeve.
Hawkeye: Show a little imagination, don't make 'em all spades.


( Bunkhouse - called the swamp )
(Sidney enters the Swamp stepping and steps over a huge pile of clothes)
Sidney: I can't understand why you call this place the Swamp.
Hawkeye: We were thinking of calling it the latrine, but that name was taken.
Sidney: (sees Hawkeye reading his letter) That's a private letter.
Hawkeye: Then why'd you leave it under your pillow?
Sidney: Can I have that, please? I want to erase anything nice I said about you guys.

Frank: I should have known better than to tell something personal to a psychiatrist!

Letter:
Sidney: If there's a way to preserve your sanity in wartime, they've found it. They slide their patched-up patients into the EVAC ambulance like loaves in a bread truck, and yet they never forget those packages are people

In closing there was no footage of the episode which therefore explains these efforts taken to describe this script and the understandings it attempted to convey. :idea:
Last edited by JamesN. on Sat May 18, 2013 11:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Just saying, James, that for me it's Capt. Hathaway who most stands out. Here's a fellow who was abruptly forced to acknowledge his shadow side (unconscious) by Hawkeye and who now has two choices: deny and repress this side of himself and try to go on as usual, or self-examine further along with consciously exploring the attitudes and choices now before him then acting on them, that is, to purposefully participate in the individuation process or not; and if not, indeed the universe will again intervene, so to speak, e.g., Hawkeye, and push him farther along the path despite unconscious resistance. Individuation is a natural developmental process of the psyche, and while much suffering and doubt can accompany this process, there's simply no escaping it as psychological beings.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:Just saying, James, that for me it's Capt. Hathaway who most stands out. Here's a fellow who was abruptly forced to acknowledge his shadow side (unconscious) by Hawkeye and who now has two choices: deny and repress this side of himself and try to go on as usual, or self-examine further along with consciously exploring the attitudes and choices now before him then acting on them, that is, to purposefully participate in the individuation process or not; and if not, indeed the universe will again intervene, so to speak, e.g., Hawkeye, and push him farther along the path despite unconscious resistance. Individuation is a natural developmental process of the psyche, and while much suffering and doubt can accompany this process, there's simply no escaping it as psychological beings.

:)
Thank you for your insight Cindy.

That last sentence to me illustates an important underlining factor or dynamic to what I am trying to get at to be taken into account here. This process approach that involves this realization: that in this interactive " net-of-gems " symbol that is represented in the human community interplay we all interface with; ( Did I put enough " inters " in that sentence? :P ); is " part " of the journey!

That individuating approach of which the perception is not only acknowledged; but as you show; an opportunity threshold is opened and offered; ( although in this case not a very pleasant experience ).

But also at a more simplistic level I think the understanding is implied of not only the insanity of this war condition; ( in all of it's gory dimensions of unspeakable horror these people have to participate in is highlighted and are able to retain their humanity ); but in a more direct approach the fact that people on different sides of an issue such as this nightmare are often oblivious to their own: " as Joe states on one occasion: " sanctified misunderstanding " and like you have just illustrated: " were forced to confront this understanding and choose! " :idea:

Also to add what very well may be the most important understanding of all in your response. And that is when presented with a " threshold " the choice is given of: " to purposefully participate in the individuation process or not " :idea:

( Of course you finessed it all in a few sentences. :wink: )
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Post by JamesN. »

Joseph Campbell often refers to the " joyful/sorrowful " aspect of participation in the interplay of life in the connections we make with our understanding of what we think the definition of reality is and our search for ( meaning ) as we engage with other individuals. We watch the news; we interact; we project meanings; yet much of our understanding constantly changes and evolves.

Cindy said:
Individuation is a natural developmental process of the psyche, and while much suffering and doubt can accompany this process, there's simply no escaping it as psychological beings.
I think much of this is what might be described as: ( the modern individual's waking and sleeping hours of pursuit in the " process of assimilation " ). Much of this has to do I think with walking the line between what is perceived as reality or assumed as such; and trying to assign meaning, value, and purpose while we navigate through time to whatever is our sense of destination may be.

One the things Joseph Campbell mentions in: " The Power of Myth " as he refers to " Don Quixote " is the aspect of the " creative imagination " that can transform the modern mechanized interpretation of life experience of living in the world; to a more spiritually responsive one to meet the interior needs and requirements of one's higher nature. This would be as opposed to the acceptance of a more sedentary, compartmentalized drudgery of the more modern bureaucratic, corporate, or service oriented work force and urban engineered lifestyles normally assigned to supporting a family. ( Pages 130-131 ) And to take this sense of possibility and integrate it into one's engagement with living in the world.

Here is a great clip from a scene in the 1972 movie " Man of La Mancha " that powerfully expresses the reason for ( not ) acquiescing to the " the acceptance of life as it is "; and can ( substitute ) in it's place the understanding " of life as it should be "; or as one might say ( can be ) instead. And as the movie or story later shows by utilizing this ( creative imaginative or " mythological " ) understanding; can defeat the " giant windmills " of modern life.

Wikipedia brief synopsis:
Main article: Man of La Mancha

Cervantes and his manservant have been imprisoned by the Spanish Inquisition, and a manuscript by Cervantes is seized by his fellow inmates, who subject him to a mock trial in order to determine whether the manuscript should be returned. Cervantes' defense is in the form of a play, in which Cervantes takes the role of Alonso Quijano, an old gentleman who has lost his mind and now believes that he should go forth as a knight-errant. Quijano renames himself Don Quixote de La Mancha, and sets out to find adventures with his "squire", Sancho Panza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhE7xY6r9pM
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

gum drop
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Post by gum drop »

I don't think Jung could spell it out as Campbell did, because of the time he was writing. I sense a strong nudge toward Eastern thinking from Jung in the end, as with Campbell, in order for balance to the current situation, but then what?

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Post by JamesN. »

Here are a few things I want to add concerning the above Cervantes clip.


I cannot speak for others of course but lately as I view the newest media offerings of " carnage " in the Middle East or the horrific devastation left by the recent weather events during this particular tornado season; I cannot help but be struck by the sense of helplessness I feel towards those effected from their destruction. Then there is this current political rhetoric along with it's charade that barely passes for any kind of coherent and responsible reaction to these subjects; and I am literally dumbfounded by this sense of the " surreal " of the moment I am surrounded by.


One of the aspects of the clip about Cervantes that continues to stick with me is the juxtaposition concerning the question of where madness lies and the acceptance of life as it is. And integrating this " life acceptance " aspect is a recurring theme that is a central part of Joseph Campbell's work.


However I also find that my mental processes and outlook are sometimes hijacked by a certain sense of futility often expressed in a common held notion that this is the true interpretation of what reality represents. Not that anyone should be held under an illusion of denying the hard facts of living; but that this kind of narrow focus seems to contradict the more important meaning expressed within the Monomyth of the " Hero's Quest ". ( Namely of " the search to find the thing that you inwardly are " and then the living out of the life expressed within that context. )


Also if I am understanding correctly of what the application of " Individuation " is in this particular circumstance; namely that of representing a vehicle or process by which this understanding is obtained; then this concept would seem to include an assimilation of both the light and dark aspects of life as components of the ordeal and not just of singling out the dark side alone.


The clip starts off with the comparison that as a poet; what he and madmen have in common; where as Cervantes states: " We both select from Life ". He is then charged with denying and not accepting the more brutal basics of survival in seeing " Life as it is "; as opposed to the more unrealistic aspects of what might be called " fantasy aspirations towards higher goals " in the interpretation or definition of what " reality " truly represents.


As Cervantes describes his various life encounters with the more brutal aspects of experience that life can offer such as death, suffering, and misery, he then illuminates with these admonishments: ( " When life seems lunatic who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be " practical " is madness; Perhaps to " surrender dreams " is madness; Or to seek treasure where there is only trash is madness; But most maddening of all is to accept life as it is and " not as it should be ". )


Throughout Joseph Campbell's work the " insight " that continually seems to emerge and come through is this invocation to me to come to grips with this continuing type of " timeless landscape " and this understanding of: " not that life should be coherent, good, righteous, and have a point; but the underlying sense of mystery, horror, wonder, heartbreak, and joy contained within it's melody into a kind of " song " that requests of me: can I hear the " message " that the song is trying to deliver and what it asks of me? Can I meet it's requirements as I grasp to hold on in the experience of the living of my life within a context of " my own volition "; and to try and find the meanings that I seek? This in part is what seems to me to be at least some of the underlying context he presents within this particular framework of the individual " Hero's Journey ".


I think for many of us we have some days that are better than others and we can become " world weary " and the adventure becomes more " struggle " than " revelation " to be sure. This evening I had been having just such a time of it; and when I retired and all was quiet I heard this one little bird singing it's " heartfelt expression " to a tired and frustrated world and within it's " joyful emotive performance " I was informed: That indeed " there " was the message I had been seeking. :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by JamesN. »

I have moved this post from " The Story " thread over here because I think it is definitely more relevant to the topic of " Individuation ".

As has been previously expressed I think the idea or concept of " Story " is much more than a tale, narration, or ( sequence-of-events ). And indeed as such as much a part of a larger ongoing process for the extraction of meaning as anything we as human beings experience.

Here is one of the most powerful " visual metaphors " I have ever seen that refers to " archetypal images " locked deep inside the imagination of " childhood memory ". And although used as a setup for the storyline of the film; every nuance and feature of this clip ( for me ) evokes this doorway of connection to a larger individual experience. If anyone has ever had a secret or special box as a child to store precious things in then this image should evoke certain memories, emotions, or connections of some sort to their past. I would assume of course that ( life stage and individual biography ) would be major determining factors in how it impacts or effects a person's consciousness; but ( my point ) here is that " everyone " is affected to some degree by certain " images " that trigger connections to their own ( " personal " Life Story ). :idea:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYzmRQ6V ... =fvwp&NR=1

( Listen to the narrative describe the contents of the box and the significance. ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31ClFUDwks
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

I saw this quote of Joseph's on the homepage just now and it fits here perfectly.
The inward journeys of the mythological hero, the shaman, the mystic, and the schizophrenic are in principle the same; and when the return or remission occurs, it is experienced as a rebirth: the birth, that is to say, of a "twice-born" ego, no longer bound in by its daylight-world horizon.


Joseph Campbell
Myths to LIve By

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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