The Furies: Suicide, Violence, and the World Inside

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

The Furies: Suicide, Violence, and the World Inside

Post by JamesN. »

I am starting this thread because I think it might be useful to talk about some of these forces that dwell within the " Psyche " and the effects that they have on all of us as human beings. They manifest everyday in the news and within each and everyone of us.

Joseph Campbell's work addressed much of the ( domain ) within which one what might call " The Furies " inhabited; and this might be an interesting avenue to explore.

Robert Walters talked about this particulat topic in this trailer that was produced for the " Mythic Journeys " video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVzwuufhe_I
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I will start by simply stating what has become almost a well known fact of modern life.

Whether the news topic is some kind of horrific massacre like that of " Newtown " or " Syria ", or whatever local version of ( murder or suicide ) that seems to be proliferating all across the globe; the increasing ( ferocity and number ) of these unspeakable acts seem to be on the rise almost to the point where this kind of violence has become an accepted norm. Yet even though this behavior has been around from man's earliest beginnings there seems to be an almost " surreal " sense of helplessness in stopping it or until recently a societal effort to try and understand it.

Indeed the " Greek Tragedies " or Shakespeare's " MacBeth " or " Hamlet " may reveal some of the depths and dimensions of these ( forces ) not usually examined on the front page of the morning news or the lead story of television's evening report; questions that one might ponder arise about why human nature after thousands of years has not yet learned to cope better with handling them.

So my question is this: " What would be some ways or thoughts in which the work of Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung might apply here concerning this idea of ( The Furies ) ? " :idea:

I will suggest one which Robert Walters offers that implies: " They must be addressed, interpreted, and integrated. "

" What does that mean or how does that apply in terms of ( Campbell and Jung ) and the modern individual ? "

Thoughts :?:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

Just sharing information about the Greek Erinyes/Roman Furies whose role it was to avenge the most despised of humanity's crimes against humanity: http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Erinyes.html

:twisted:
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Wow! :o

Awesome Cindy. It's a good thing we don't know how to conjure any of these up to visit some of our politicians. :twisted: ( But then that might evoke some Bad Karma; Huh? ) :P
Last edited by JamesN. on Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

I'm not quite sure where this fits, but I'll give it a shot...

As soon as I saw this thread, James, I was reminded of Aeschylus' Oresteia, the story of personal revenge: Clytemnestra's murder of Agamemnon for the sacrifice of their daughter, and Orestes matricide of Clytemnestra for the murder of his father, Agamemnon. Orestes is then, of course, hounded by the Eumenides/Erinyes (Furies), until he is put on trial in Athens with Athena as the judge and Apollo as Orestes' counsel while the Erinyes serve as advocates for the shade of Clytemnestra and 11 Athenians stand as jury.

In the end, and I don't recall how, the verdict is a tie and Athena casts the deciding vote to acquit Orestes. This from Wiki:
Athena then leads a procession accompanying them (Erinyes ) to their new abode and the escort now addresses them as "Semnai" (Venerable Ones), as they will now be honored by the citizens of Athens and ensure the city's prosperity. Athena also declares that henceforth tied juries will result in the defendant being acquitted, as mercy should always take precedence over harshness.
So on the one hand, this is a story of litigation over primitive blood-feud and revenge. However, in the transformation of the Furies into a positive element, we seem to see something of the psychological process you're discussing here.

Or maybe not? lol! You tell me!

Clemsy

PS: I'm also reminded of the scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the leather coated Gestapo agent sees the beautiful angel rising from the Ark to turn into a hideous demon.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Clemsy said:
So on the one hand, this is a story of litigation over primitive blood-feud and revenge. However, in the transformation of the Furies into a positive element, we seem to see something of the psychological process you're discussing here.


Thank you Cindy and Clemsy; these are excellent references to what I'm hoping will emerge as a discussion about a " range of issues ". I have been noticing much of what has surfaced in the media over the last few months seems to me in some way connected to mental illness and violent behavior within the ( societal boudaries ) and not just from political or military conflict. ( When I referred to " The Furies " I believe this in part relates to what Robert Walters was implying from his clip. )

Until now I had forgotten about the PBS specials called " After Newtown " being broadcast this week. ( The links are listed below. ) This is deep stuff; covered indepth; and from many points of view; but what is more important is the fact that people are starting to pay attention. What the future holds no one knows; but there is starting to be engagement and you can see it on the news. After these specials finished the BBC evening broadcast came on and there it was again; ( a story about " Newtown " and The President's gun control package ).

Today a man got in a shootout on a California freeway, then started firing at traffic, then turned the gun on himself and commited suicide. In a separate story a country music singer named Mindy McCready just committed suicide with a gun while suffering from depression from the loss of her boyfriend who had also committed suicide with a gun three weeks earlier. ( She had been having mental health treatment issues for awhile for those unfamiliar with her story. ) Also you have the headline story of the moment concerning " Oscar Pistorius " committing the murder of his girlfriend by gun violence. ( That is of course Homicide and not Suicide. )

But to me the " genesis " of many these incidents has a ( connection ) to a much deeper concern than just gun control. And ( IMHO ) it has to do with the way society deals with " mental health ". This has been a germinating condition in the making for many many years and is now starting to manifest itself in a ( multitude ) of ways. Normally treated as a " White Elephant "; it just has never been the socially acceptable topic to really address in the spotlight because it is so threatening to a cultures comfort zone and there is so much ignorance about it's causes and treatments. ( Not to mention the huge variety of complex variations and types of illnesses that exist and the money involved for care. Cindy would be more qualified to comment on this area than I would. ) It is also worth noting that since the 1980's any government support for most mental health programs has been woefully lacking. An example would be the closing of many funded mental health care facilities that housed all but the severely challenged during the Reagan Era where many Vietnam veterans and even elderly patients were turned out into the streets because there was no other place for them to go. ( This happened where I lived. ) Sadly this was also the time when the problem of " homelessness " first began to appear as well.

But the key issue to me here is lack of knowledge and understanding about violence and behavior; and the will or desire to deal with it. From childhood to adulthood ( IMHO ) the way this issue in human interaction is perceived in the larger cultural context will have a great deal to do with societial quality of life. This time I don't think it is going to go away. I think it is going to get worse until we are forced to deal with it. ( Remember how people did not want to acknowledge Global Warming and Climate Change? ) To illustrate this growing concern I will mention something I overheard at a local Costco recently that really stunned me. As I was walking down an isle I heard one employee saying that he could sell an AR15 for $1100 to another employee's friend ; he had 10 of them. ( I wondered how many other conversations like this were taking place all over the country. It is all perfectly legal. ) As a matter of fact where I live there is legislation proposed at this moment about being able to have a firearm in any employee's vehicle at the workplace for protection. Then of course you have the movement to " arm " teachers in the classroom. Perhaps there should be a class about what a simple bullet can do to a human being and the ( life changing ) repercussions that can occur to many people ( as well as ) the victum.; and of course there is the issue of ( stray ) bullets that needs to be considered. ( I do not think this will not stop urban or rural violence. ) My point is this kind of environment is very unhealthy; and it is getting worse.

At any rate this is just a starting place; and for those who have a moment the videos are an excellent window into some of the issues surrounding this topic.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2336640229

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... dam-lanza/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... n-divided/

http://video.pbs.org/video/2336803730

Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey everyone.

It has been a few weeks since the last post on this thread and I have been mulling over the question about what some of the ways this issue of : ( The Furies ); manifests itself in various forms. I came across this article last night and it really dug in deep in showing how powerful this dimension can reach in the way it can overcome an individual; even if they have professional training:

http://news.yahoo.com/vet-saved-many-ir ... 36480.html

As I was reflecting on this I came across this separate article that describes some of the conditions and reasons behind this dilemma:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03 ... icide?lite

When you consider the statistic given that across the societal spectrum that " suicide " is the " 10th leading cause of death " in this country; the relevance of this issue becomes; ( I think inescapable ). Also with the ever increasing amount of firearms into the mainstream culture I think we may even see a rise of this as well. IMHO I also think it's future importance will continue to grow because of the continuing amount and degree of stress and difficulty that human beings will be asked to endure given the changing paradigms of the economy, the environment, and the increasing instability and of modern life; juxtaposed against whatever exists within any persons interconnection with other individuals and society as a whole.

One of the interesting reasons for this I think which is identified in this article is " Coping Skills " and how they are developed. Another component which I think is related here is the ( interconnectedness of individuals ) and their " personal search for meaning "; not only in the life journey process; but also in the inevitible " crisis of a lifetime " that are both random within society; and part of the " life decision " process which is required in it's various stages.

For a humorous balance of a rather depressing subject I am adding some youtube video clips about MASH and " Dr. Sydney Freedman " who was an important charactor in this iconic TV series. And although this material may seem rather tame and beneign by today's standards; I think it's message is still relevant of the deep concern, compassion, and the understanding that we as human beings are connected to one another in our " shared common condition ":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj-4CKegHLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z1Oh0H0oXg

( The Theme Song for this famous series was called " Suicide is Painless ". In it's time it was one of the highest rated shows on television. )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHg8-3wr2KU

And although somewhat ragged and convoluted in my attempt here; perhaps others may have some thoughts on this. :idea:


Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

James,

Regarding the issue of suicide, I, anyway, believe that the archetypal furies are unrelated to this phenomenon, the reason why I offered a link to the Greek Erinyes/Roman Furies in an effort to clarify this, I'd hoped.

Instead I would suggest that for starters you consider these analytical concepts: suicide complex, death archetype, death/rebirth cycle. When you have time, begin with this 2003 paper written by John Betts, a Jungian analyst: Towards a Jungian Theory of Suicide.

Focus particularly on what Betts says about Jung's ideas and Analytical Psychology, as well as on his own which I find to be quite interesting and on point. You'll likely need to read through this paper more than once, but given the progress that you've made so far in your study of Jungian ideas, I do think that you'll come away with a reasonable understanding of the issues and relevant concepts.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey Cindy.

To clarify " The Furies " reference; I was speaking strictly towards a very loose metaphorical connection to what Robert Walters had mentioned in an earlier posted video on another thread; and which I used in my topic outline. But as you rightly have clarified that usage is incorrect from a clinical position. My apologies for I certainly was not intending to play " fast and loose " with the medical defintion or understanding. As you have insightfully surmised I am sifting and sorting through much of this material as reflected through my own personal individuated journey of understanding. As always your helpful recommendations are appreciated; ( what would we do without you ). 8) :wink: Thank you for the help and the link. :idea:

Cheers.

Also I should add the " M.A.S.H. " video material was coming from a different reflective position and I should have clarified that better as well. :roll:
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

Share with me, please, James, and when you have the time, what Robert Walters said about the furies in this context. I don't recall nor have time to watch the video or research right now. Thanks!

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Here it is the video from the topic outline description; ( I probably should have been clearer about it when I made the reference. :roll: ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVzwuufhe_I

( I think also that this was given from more of a mythological perspective than from a clinical; analytical; or psychological sense. But certainly you would know more than I on this. :? )
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

James,

Even I had time to just watch that one-minute video. :P And what I took away from it is mainly the notions of complexes and shadow. For starters, go here and here and here--scroll down halfway and here. Also, remember, for the most part Campbell's psychological point of view, both collective and personal, was Jungian, and myths arise from the collective unconscious, i.e., myths are a product of the psyche.



Clemsy,

Can you offer in a nutshell what Campbell said about the furies? Thanks!


:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

Don't recall him saying anything, but I'll ask David. I checked the indices of a few books... nothing.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

Thanks, Clemsy. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

Well, David sent me this, which is from a manuscript just completed by Saffron Rossi, the director of the Opus Archives, based on Campbell's lectures about the feminine divine. The book is titled Goddesses: Mysteries of the Feminine Divine.

And if the theme is somewhat similar to what I have already posted, well, what can I say? Great minds think alike! lol!
The next big return is that of Agamemnon, and the cycle of killing that began with his sacrifice of Iphigenia continues with his own murder by his wife Clytemnestra, and then her murder by her son Orestes. Now, in any culture murdering a mother is about as hideous a deed as can be performed, but in the Greek world of this time there's a question: was Orestes the son of this mother or the son of this father? Are we reckoning relationships in the matrilineal line, or the patrilineal line? If the inheritance is in the father line and the father has been murdered, then it is the son’s duty to kill the murderer of his father, in this case his own mother. If, on the other hand, the inheritance is in the female line, then killing his father is not his duty as the father is inconsequential — it becomes a personal act and therefore a sin.

Here we see the conflict between the two systems, the earlier mother-rite base which had survived in the countryside among the pagani (Latin meaning “rustic people”—hence the word pagans) and the later, Indo-European, patriarchal father-rite system, which was that adopted by the Achaean Greeks, and in particular the city of Athens. As representatives of the patriarchal system, Apollo and Athene declare that Orestes was not guilty and they are going to allay or hold off the female power of the Furies by making a pig sacrifice over Orestes.

Figure 102. The Purification of Orestes (red-figure krater, c. 370 b.c. )

. Orestes is seated in the center near the omphalos while Apollo, holding the pig, conducts the rites of purification over his head..

In this image (Fig. 102), Orestes is being purified of his blood guilt for killing his mother Clytemnestra at Apollo’s shrine at Delphi. (That’s the omphalos he’s sitting against.) Apollo is on the right bathing him in the blood of the pig — Orestes is cleansed in the blood of the lamb, as it were. The sacrifice of the pig is made to allay the wrath of the Furies who represent the chthonic underworld powers and the mother line — and the pig sacrifice is going to be very important in The Odyssey. Artemis stands behind Apollo carrying hunting spears. On the right are two sleeping Erinyes whom Athena has put to sleep. The woman touching the sleeping Erinyes is the shade of Clytemnestra, bidding them to wake and avenge her. The Erinyes are ancient deities in the Greek tradition who “are the avengers of offences against blood-relations on the mother’s and father’s side, of all offences against moral, and finally even natural law.” They represent “a human relation intensely felt…the outraged soul of the dead man crying for vengeance.”

Orestes is cleansed, and the male principal dominates.

The pig, we saw in Çatal Hüyük, was the domestic animal representing the chthonic earth powers. The Achaeans come in with the cattle herds and their own gods, to whom a cow or bull would be sacrificed instead. The powers that have to be appeased in Orestes’ case, however, are the powers of the earth, the Furies, the Mother Goddess powers. Jane Harrison talks about the difference between the two sacrifices: the Achaean sacrifice is a meal is shared with the gods, while the old pig sacrifice is what was known as a holocaust (literally, “a complete burning”): the killing of the animal, with the blood and ashes poured into the earth, and so it is not a shared meal.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Locked