Money, myth, and Joseph Campbell

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Clemsy:
There are those who are responsible. There are people making decisions that profoundly impact the lives of many, many people. The buck, in many cases, stops somewhere.

Hey everyone.

Clemsy's quote was part of the point I was trying to make in my earlier posts; ( but part of the problem I think is going to be looking for an " absolute " across the board ); that is going to be very difficult in the " larger scheme of things ". ) There is a lot of discord going on between world governments and multi-national corporations struggling against cross-purposes. However if we collectively don't try to do something pretty soon; at some point I think the tipping point; as is said; will be reached and " Mother Nature " may just step in and voice her own opinion about all of this and make the decision for us. And by that time whatever we as humans think may not matter! What was it Joe mentions? ( " Standing on a whale fishing for minnows. " )

What you are talking about at the personal level I think is where some of the traction starts. In relation to what you are saying I have to do things on a case by case basis; ( not one rule for everything ); of course that may not necessarily be what you meant; just for me.

Something Cindy uses that is helpful to me at the personal level:
" Trust that which gives you meaning and accept it as your guide. --Jung "


( But in the end I think you do best you can and lean toward the light. ) :idea:
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
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zoe
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Post by zoe »

The buck, in many cases, stops somewhere.
Since the American judicial system has decided corporations are de facto citizens that simplifies things, except that our retirement funds, state and local finances, etc. have corporate connections that makes us them. So somewhere is everywhere or nowhere.

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

zoe wrote:
The buck, in many cases, stops somewhere.
Since the American judicial system has decided corporations are de facto citizens that simplifies things, except that our retirement funds, state and local finances, etc. have corporate connections that makes us them. So somewhere is everywhere or nowhere.
Indeed Zoe. That's what I meant by an absolute! :idea:
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

I think most of what Joe talks about from all that I have drawn is more in line with this train of thought. However to be fair the chapter from Diane Osbon's book which I drew my quotes also makes some very interesting distinctions about how he saw money in general.
I dont know her. :)
( But Also ): Now that I have made money, in dealing with it I've had to be in touch with people whose business is money, whose whole life has been in that field, and I've had an interesting and surprising experience: I've met some magnificent people.
Here I disagree. People are not magnificent when their business is money. People rip apart each other for money. People get divorced because they don't have enough money and they are never enough. The same people though can be magnificent when their business is life.
Money experienced as life energy is indeed a meditation, and letting it flow out instead of hoarding it is a mode of participation in the lives of others. There is a beautiful thing that can grow out a life devoted to money that surprised me. "
Letting it flow is the key word here, me thinks. Exactly the opposite of what is happening in our societies. Here is a question though. What happens if you don't have money? (like myself) haha, bummer!
( The above was the reference to this quote that I used earlier ): " In the living of a life today, money is a facilitating energy source. With money in the tank like gasoline, you can get to places you otherwise couldn't go. "
Can I? What if I want to go to the moon? What if I want to create a truly inspiring painting? Not all things can be bought.

P.S. - James you might want to check the Could Atlas movie, a really nice one, deals with this subject. Greed, power, manipulation, freedom and slavery and how it all ripples across a sea of time. It also mention Clemsy's infamous quote. "No drops, no ocean!"
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Andreas.

The book is: " Reflections on the Art of Living: A Joseph Campbell Companion " By Diane K. Osbon who was a close student of Joseph Campbell's. It is listed in the " Collected Works " forum if you are interested and it is also available through the bookstore for ( $13.97 ) in paperback; ( a real bargain). Pages 58-60 are the text containing the quotes. This book; ( if you are not already familiar with it ); offers a wealth of material and insight into Joe's themes. As to the quotes themselves I believe some of them are also included in " The Power of Myth " but I'm a little foggy on this. I picked these in particular because to me they seem to offer to me the most representative perspective of his thoughts concerning ( money ) and it's relationship to " Bliss ".

_____________________________________________________
( P.S. - James you might want to check the Could Atlas movie, a really nice one, deals with this subject. Greed, power, manipulation, freedom and slavery and how it all ripples across a sea of time. It also mention Clemsy's infamous quote. "No drops, no ocean!" )
Thanks Andreas.

______________________________________________________


As to the " Moon " excursion; entreprenuer and business mogul " Richard Branson " may be offering passage before too much longer; but the price might be a little high for those of us of more limited means.

In July 2012, Branson announced plans to build an orbital space launch system, designated LauncherOne.[39] Four commercial customers have already contracted for launches and two companies are developing standardised satellite buses optimised to the design of LauncherOne, in expectation of business opportunities created by the new smallsat launcher.[40]
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Thanks for the information James on Diane Osbon and the book. :)
As to the " Moon " excursion; entreprenuer and business mogul " Richard Branson " may be offering passage before too much longer; but the price might be a little high for those of us of more limited means.
He can buy it alright, I am not arguing about that. But he is not the creator of it and if the people who can create them were not interested in selling then the people who have the money but not the know how wouldn't be able to go to the moon or create a beautiful painting.

Personally I think that the soldiers too have a fair amount of responsibility for the economic mess.

Also a strange fact about the rich and the poor is that the poor, even though they don't have enough, always share more. Amazing isn't it? I think it is because they don't care about money that they can do this.

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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas said:
Also a strange fact about the rich and the poor is that the poor, even though they don't have enough, always share more. Amazing isn't it? I think it is because they don't care about money that they can do this.

Andeas I think this is an important point to consider and part of the message that Joe was trying to illuminate. That through the suffering of others we find ourselves. As was stated in the ( Power of Myth ): " You and the other are one ".

Although to be fair to the wealthy there certainly are many of course who work tirelessly to help those less fortunate. But this may be a somewhat different expression than a personal goal of fulfillment depending upon the individual's ( call ) and the path that they are following.

I think there is a distinction to be made here in that it is within this personal experience of connection that the transformative element of compassion that leads to conscious awareness of this is activated. In the sense you are addressing this I'm certainly not saying you have to be poor to experience it; but the " Buddhist " insights toward ( attachment ) seem to stress this interpretation more than the " Christian " doctrines of the west. ( " The eye of the needle " metaphor he quoted seems to come to mind here. ) And although in a larger world perspective poverty is global and whatever equity distribution there is may vary; I think concerning this issue it is this understanding of connection to humanity's suffering in a broader sense that the ( joyful participation in the sorrows of the world ) aspect might be more easily applied; but certainly not the only one. Things like medicine; science, and other avenues of this nature might also offer possibilities of expression. Also personal expression as you mentioned about the artist within the Arts and athletic achievement might be others; but that I think is a different area in some ways than this. As to soldiers and war I think that is a different domain in the general sense than what we are covering here. ( This is what it seems to be saying to me. )
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote:There are those who are responsible. There are people making decisions that profoundly impact the lives of many, many people. The buck, in many cases, stops somewhere.
There are those that take on or have responsibility put upon them ... in the sense of morality.

Then there is the more pragmatic sense of responsibility - the Sun(amongst other factors) is responsible for what we call life here on earth. Note I cannot say the sum is solely responsible for life that we think we know.

The buck stops where we stop looking.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by Clemsy »

Rom I have to disagree. I will give you a concrete example. There are levels of wealth which are, imo, pornographic. Bill Gates is using that wealth to promote his own world view and what he's doing to public school education in the states is reprehensible.

And because he and his wife are rich and have bought their way into the education dialogue, they are considered "experts."

Now, there are those who allow themselves to be bought (like the teachers unions) and they too are responsible.

And I am responsible for acting or not acting.

Are you saying no one is ultimately responsible for anything?
Last edited by Clemsy on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Andreas »

Do you guys think that these movies like the one James or myself mentioned actually have an impact on the younger generations. Do we ever learn as a species or do we make the same mistakes over and over again?

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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: Are you saying no one is ultimately responsible for anything?
It is more complicated and much simpler than that.

Firstly you see Bill Gates as responsible because either you like what he is doing or in this case dislike what he is doing.

We draw arbitrary boundaries around people and hold the contents of the boundary as responsible.

If a madman hurts someone then we don't hold that person morally responsible and yet quite pragmatically we can understand if the mad person was not there, then the someone would not have been hurt in that instance. We can see past the incident and understand if the mad person had got the appropriate care he would not have been in a position to hurt that someone. We can push the moral responsibility on to some bureaucracy or institution. And here we draw another arbitrary boundary.

Bill Gates is responsible for his actions in exactly the same way a virus is responsible for me getting the flu.

Though to vaccinate against Bill Gates may be a bit tricky.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Andreas.

For me I would have to say both. One there is the eternal aspect as in " timeless ground " where you have the cycles of the nature dimension; ( for instance the stages of life and their processes ); and then you have the evolutionary aspect we as human beings evolve as say in the sciences or civilizations. ( Although at times it sure seems to me like humanity is sitting still or going backwards. ) :lol:

Addendum: I think also as Rom is saying perception may play a role here as well.
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: Are you saying no one is ultimately responsible for anything?
Another way of putting it is, I think no one is an intrinsic one.

This goes to the absolute thread that is running parallel to this thread.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Rom said:
This goes to the absolute thread that is running parallel to this thread.
Rom can you illuminate on this?
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

JamesN. wrote:Rom said:
This goes to the absolute thread that is running parallel to this thread.
Rom can you illuminate on this?
When we hold someone morally responsible, we can cease to see the mitigating factors.

Bill Gates has done X, and I hold him responsible.
Christianity has done much harm over the centuries.
Religion has done much good.
These are absolute statements.

In reality it is the universe unfolding ... we will be shaped by its unfolding and indeed we shape the unfolding. I think it is pointless to look at these two things as separate phenomena.

Not sure I have shed any illumination.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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