Money, myth, and Joseph Campbell

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JamesN.
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Money, myth, and Joseph Campbell

Post by JamesN. »

Hey everyone; Here is another new topic to consider utilizing something everyone can relate to; ( money ).

I came across something last night that I thought might be a good starting place for this thread and has a direct relation to several issues of the aesthetics of living in the world. And since economics are so directly related these days to the concerns of most people because of the downturn of the economic collapse of 2008 and the reverberations that are still being felt; this topic might be a good vantage point with which to widen out in a practical way some of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on several levels while still keeping things more or less grounded concerning life maintenance.

Joseph Campbell's thoughts in this area are quite illuminating including several quotes here:

" Money is congealed energy and releasing it releases life possibilities. You realize that the possibilities of life in an economically oriented society are really a function of how much money you've got. "

Also:

" In the living of a life today, money is a facilitating energy source. With money in the tank like gasoline, you can get places you otherwise couldn't go. "

But:

" If you follow your bliss you will always have your bliss, money or not. If you follow money, you may lose it, and you will have nothing. "

And:

" When you put the money in the wrong place it can be devastating. Where is the money going and where is it coming from in the economy of a nation, the economy of a city? That's one of the big problems. You can turn a flowering culture into a desiccating culture just by wrong channeling. "

( Pages 58 -60; " Reflections On The Art Of Living - A Joseph Campbell Companion " )

________________________________________________________


Here is where we are now I think as reflected within many of the news stories of the day:

On December 25th the new release of Martin Scorsese's new film: " The Wolf of Wall Street " will be released and has already reignited the buzz about the earlier 1987 block buster: " Wall Street " and it's relevance to so many earlier as well as current controversies about the material greed and lust for power and it's abuses that has gripped our times and causing the suffering for so many.

Here are some memorable quotes from the first movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094291/quotes

( Addendum: My apologies for the strong language in some of the quotes. )

( Also for those interested here is an interview from last night on " Charlie Rose " with Martin Scorsese and Leonardo DeCaprio about the new film. ):

http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60318162
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Can't remember where I read it, but Campbell described money as "congealed energy",

Could be time too, from my perspective.

We spend time ... Ahh Steven Pinker
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Post by JamesN. »

romansh wrote:Can't remember where I read it, but Campbell described money as "congealed energy",

Could be time too, from my perspective.

We spend time ... Ahh Steven Pinker

Hey Rom; yes, I think the way Joe illustrates the image of money as perceived as a tool or agent to achieve an end instead of being used as an instrument of power or a representation of that within itself is one distinction he makes.
" Money is congealed energy and releasing it releases life possibilities. You realize that the possibilities of life in an economically oriented society are really a function of how much money you've got. "
The corrosive effect of " materialism " and it's seductive impact on a society; ( which is a direct result of the abuse of money ); is another he points to here.
" When you put the money in the wrong place it can be devastating. Where is the money going and where is it coming from in the economy of a nation, the economy of a city? That's one of the big problems. You can turn a flowering culture into a desiccating culture just by wrong channeling. "
In the new film for those who see it you are going to see extreme levels of excess concerning the message the movie portrays; ( that is in part what it is saying and why it was made ). The interview in the link above talks about that at length. ( " Caligula " was one reference that was given. )

It's a metaphor. Here is a clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iszwuX1AK6A
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

JamesN. wrote: The corrosive effect of " materialism " and it's seductive impact on a society; ( which is a direct result of the abuse of money ); is another he points to here.
Materialism is somehow bad?

This is where I depart from many of the associates here. Our religious texts are peppered with don't judge or not casting the first stone. Even the original sin can be understood as parsing things into is and is not. (good and evil)

This is why terms like seductive and abuse leave me cold. I have no problem with say someone campaigning for a more equitable distribution of congealed energy, but demonizing someone who has more than her fair share ... is for me pointless.

I suspect just about everyone on this forum has more than their fair share of congealed energy. Motes in eyes 'n all.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by JamesN. »

romansh wrote:
JamesN. wrote: The corrosive effect of " materialism " and it's seductive impact on a society; ( which is a direct result of the abuse of money ); is another he points to here.
Materialism is somehow bad?

This is where I depart from many of the associates here. Our religious texts are peppered with don't judge or not casting the first stone. Even the original sin can be understood as parsing things into is and is not. (good and evil)

This is why terms like seductive and abuse leave me cold. I have no problem say someone campaigning for a more equitable distribution of congealed energy, but demonizing someone who has more than her fair share ... is for me pointless.

I suspect just about everyone on this forum has more than their fair share of congealed energy. Motes in eyes 'n all.

Indeed Rom your point is well taken. Perhaps I should have clarified more succinctly what I was driving at.

I meant " materialism " as a manipulative device of power utilized in the sense of ( at the " expense " of the welfare of others ); not as a value-judgment that denigrates an individual in the sense you are stating concerning " congealed energy "; which was IMO Joe's point I was trying to make in the quotes above of being utilized as a resource. ( Although granted as you pointed out; there may be some areas in which we may differ in opinion on this. )

( Also I think your reference to an individual's " time " and efforts " spent " further emphasizes this issue. )

The movie metaphors illustrate and underline the profound implications and results of these issues. For instance the debauchery of the Roman " Caligula " has often been used throughout history as one of the most notable examples. Perhaps an even better one might be that of Marie Antionette's famous: " Let them eat cake " as a reference to these abuses and the resulting " French Revolution ". ( That was my point. ) :idea:

And although we " participate in a reality of duality "; as to assuming any position of piety; ( yes ); this is one I think we should all be aware of:
" Motes in eyes 'n all "
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Post by edgeyy66 »

Hi I"m new to the forum. I've been lurking for a while so I thought I'd drop my 2 cents (canadian) into the kitty.

I like the idea that living abundantly is a byproduct of following our bliss. I also agree that there are times when the pursuit of money is at odds with following our bliss.

I do not, however, think that we draw the line from there to "money is bad" or "rich is bad". This seems to fly in the face of what I understand about JC. It is about the power of myth not the evil of (fill in the blank).

I've recently given up a lucrative consulting practice to pursue writing (my bliss) while i am taking a serious hit financially I do hope to eventually generate a comfortable living from "my bliss".

That is assuming they are not mutually exclusive :)
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Post by romansh »

edgeyy66 wrote: I do not, however, think that we draw the line from there to "money is bad" or "rich is bad". This seems to fly in the face of what I understand about JC. It is about the power of myth not the evil of (fill in the blank).
Welcome ... and for what it is worth I agree.

rom
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Post by edgeyy66 »

romansh wrote:Welcome ... and for what it is worth I agree. rom
"The woods of BC near the US??"

I'm from the Cariboo - same woods?
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Post by Andreas »

The movie metaphors illustrate and underline the profound implications and results of these issues. For instance the debauchery of the Roman " Caligula " has often been used throughout history as one of the most notable examples. Perhaps an even better one might be that of Marie Antionette's famous: " Let them eat cake " as a reference to these abuses and the resulting " French Revolution ". ( That was my point. ) - James
The kingly ignorance of the rich is amusing, sometimes.

I don't blame the rich but we surely stand on opposites sides. And I have too many personal experiences to think otherwise.

Also as far as the subject of materialism goes. We are spiritual creatures and not this crude matter. Following your bliss is a spiritual journey as per Campbell, if i am not mistaken. Evoking the spirituality in every thing even in science that is looking at matter in a very logical and crude way there is a spiritual principle behind it.

Oh and hi everyone. :D
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hello Andreas. Nice to have you pop in on this.

Andeas said:
Also as far as the subject of materialism goes. We are spiritual creatures and not this crude matter. Following your bliss is a spiritual journey as per Campbell, if i am not mistaken. Evoking the spirituality in every thing even in science that is looking at matter in a very logical and crude way there is a spiritual principle behind it.
I think most of what Joe talks about from all that I have drawn is more in line with this train of thought. However to be fair the chapter from Diane Osbon's book which I drew my quotes also makes some very interesting distinctions about how he saw money in general.

( For instance ): " I took a vow never to do anything for money. Now that does not mean when I do something for somebody I don't ask for money; I want as much as I can get, but that is a secondary part of the game. My life course is absolutely indifferent to money. "

( But Also ): Now that I have made money, in dealing with it I've had to be in touch with people whose business is money, whose whole life has been in that field, and I've had an interesting and surprising experience: I've met some magnificent people.

Money experienced as life energy is indeed a meditation, and letting it flow out instead of hoarding it is a mode of participation in the lives of others. There is a beautiful thing that can grow out a life devoted to money that surprised me. "

( The above was the reference to this quote that I used earlier ): " In the living of a life today, money is a facilitating energy source. With money in the tank like gasoline, you can get to places you otherwise couldn't go. "

____________________________


Hello Edgeyy66. Glad to have you here and welcome to the forums.

Edgeyy66 said:
I like the idea that living abundantly is a byproduct of following our bliss. I also agree that there are times when the pursuit of money is at odds with following our bliss.

I do not, however, think that we draw the line from there to "money is bad" or "rich is bad". This seems to fly in the face of what I understand about JC. It is about the power of myth not the evil of (fill in the blank).



In reference to to your statement here indeed I agree and I think the word I would use to ( fill in the blank ) is " abuse ".


Also just to clarify everything concerning my " subject objective " with this thread so as to stay on topic and clear up any misconceptions about what I am saying ( this ) was what I said and my point addressing Rom's concerns:


Thread Topic:
Here is another new topic to consider utilizing something everyone can relate to; ( money ).
( And ):

And since economics are so directly related these days to the concerns of most people because of the downturn of the economic collapse of 2008 and the reverberations that are still being felt; this topic might be a good vantage point with which to widen out in a practical way some of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on several levels while still keeping things more or less grounded concerning life maintenance.

I said:
I meant " materialism " as a manipulative device of power utilized in the sense of ( at the " expense " of the welfare of others ); not as a value-judgment that denigrates an individual in the sense you are stating concerning " congealed energy "; which was IMO Joe's point I was trying to make in the quotes above of being utilized as a resource.

( Addendum ): Here is Joe's quote emphasizing the point:
" When you put the money in the wrong place it can be devastating. Where is the money going and where is it coming from in the economy of a nation, the economy of a city? That's one of the big problems. You can turn a flowering culture into a desiccating culture just by wrong channeling. "



Again to be clear; my point is about the " abuse of money "; ( not the making of it ). :idea:



Cheers :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by romansh »

edgeyy66 wrote:
romansh wrote:Welcome ... and for what it is worth I agree. rom
"The woods of BC near the US??"

I'm from the Cariboo - same woods?
West Kootenays - God's country
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Post by romansh »

James
I said:
I meant " materialism " as a manipulative device of power utilized in the sense of ( at the " expense " of the welfare of others ); not as a value-judgment that denigrates an individual in the sense you are stating concerning " congealed energy "; which was IMO Joe's point I was trying to make in the quotes above of being utilized as a resource.
And yet you use a manipulative 'device' to try and shape our opinions.

All this depends on our world views ... I happen to think we are in a zero sum game Where the influx of energy on this planet has not and is not evenly distributed, consequently wealth is not evenly distributed (a simplification but it will do for now).

I am likely more wealthy than many of my neighbours. Did I plan on being this way; not particularly? I work for a mining company, which many would consider falsely an avatar for greed and destruction.. I have quoted this before, and I think it highlights what Campbell means:
  1. You yourself are participating in evil, or you are not alive. Whatever you do is evil to someone. This is one of the ironies of creation.
So my point ... don't look at materialism as some sort of demon that needs to be vanquished. Be honest with yourself and simply admit you desire a more equitable distribution of wealth, and devise a plan that does not bring the system crashing down. Unless you want the system to come crashing down, which is OK. But don't be surprised there is a reaction (in either case).

Andreas, brought up the other meaning of materialism - ie physicalism.
  1. We are spiritual creatures and not this crude matter.
Well I am following my bliss and embracing physicalism. That you think matter is crude, I would argue shows a lack spiritualism, in my take on the word. As someone with a scientific background I find awe and wonder in this so called crude matter.
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Post by Clemsy »

And yet you use a manipulative 'device' to try and shape our opinions.
I'd like some more information here Rom. If there's one thing I don't know James to be, it's "manipulative" in the sense that you seem to be applying it... a sense that appears more personal than is necessary...
That you think matter is crude, I would argue shows a lack spiritualism
...and that one is definitely more personal than is necessary.
Our religious texts are peppered with don't judge...
Indeed.

Clemsy
Last edited by Clemsy on Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clemsy »

Interesting topic, James. As with much else, this is a question of balance. I don't think the problem is one of money, per se, but one of desire, a dragon we all must wrestle with and money is only one manifestation.

When it comes to body v. spirit, I decided long ago that there can't be any difference between the two at the balance point where duality is reconciled.

No doubt, though, that there is a profound lack of balance between matter and spirit today. May result in spirit needing to find a new home in which to manifest itself.

We'll see. We do indeed live in interesting times.

Clemsy
Last edited by Clemsy on Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JamesN. »

Thanks Clemsy; that is really what I am trying to clear up here.

Rom I really don't disagree with the majority of your whole reply; I really don't.

But perhaps I should state a few things a little differently because clarity matters here.

When I say " materialism " I probably should have said " economic materialism " in this particular sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_materialism

( Or ) if you want to take this into a more convoluted direction ( which I definitely do not ) something like this: http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-c ... Id=11092[i] ( LOL )
[/i]
But my emphasis on this point really has to do more with a commonly held notion or general understanding of wealth abuse and not demonizing any individual's right to pursue fulfillment. ( Just as long as everyone else doesn't have to suffer for it. ) It is true of course as you state that being on one side or the other of duality someone generally is at a disadvantage; but " throwing the baby out with the bathwater " is more to my point here.

That is the direction I am trying to go with this.
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