Money, myth, and Joseph Campbell

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

romansh wrote:
JamesN. wrote: [/i]The world's struggle for the various human populations to feed themselves and maintain a sustainable quality of life and still get along together I think is going to push this issue until they are forced to confront the fact that there is not enough of the earth's ability to sustain this trajectory; no matter what the agenda may be. One may debate this issue in any form or fashion they wish; but to me this reality is inescapable.
This reminds me of the JWs who come to my door and say what aterrible world we are living in..

The problem is not that we are unsuccesful in serving the poor, it is because we have been all too successful (slipping into dualistic thought for the moment).

there is a series of you tubes for Hans Rosling here, which pretty much sums up what I mean.
____________________________________________________________________


Hey Rom; ( If you would; " please " make the connection with this area of the topic statement. )

this topic might be a good vantage point with which to widen out in a practical way some of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on several levels while still keeping things more or less grounded
My objective here in this discussion is the connection to Joe's work; ( with " some latitude " of course ). :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

romansh
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Post by romansh »

JamesN. wrote:
Hey Rom; ( If you would; " please " make the connection with this area of the topic statement. )

this topic might be a good vantage point with which to widen out in a practical way some of Joseph Campbell's thoughts on several levels while still keeping things more or less grounded
My objective here in this discussion is the connection to Joe's work; ( with " some latitude " of course ). :wink:
Campbell touched on about everything did he not? ;)

I won't look for a quote at the moment, but did he not say the world is just fine as it is, or words to that effect.

Did you look at the Hans Rosling videos ... try the first one ... five minutes. you will be hooked. You have no choice ... ;)
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by Clemsy »

but did he not say the world is just fine as it is, or words to that effect.


Not quite. He said, "The world is perfect. It's a mess. It's always been a mess. You're job is to straighten out your own life."

However, Campbell also said one should not stand on the fence. One should take a side and "participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world."

One, as usual, finds it quite difficult to determine what you are arguing for, if indeed you are arguing for anything but argument for its own sake.

And your comparison of James' statement to that of a Jehovah's's Witness is beyond absurd. :-/
Last edited by Clemsy on Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: One, as usual, Rom finds it quite difficult to determine what you are arguing for, if indeed you are arguing for anything but argument for its own sake.

And your comparison of James' statement to that of a Jehovah's's Witness is beyond absurd. :-/
As far as I can tell, that James' statement reminded me of JW's view of a world that is in a mess is a fact. I can understand that it did not come to your mind or that you interpreted James' statement differently. There is a difference between my statement being absurd and you thinking it is, don't you think?

In the paragraph above that, you appear to be referring (I presume) to me in both the first and third person. So, I am not sure of your intent.

I feel, like I am having a nice amicable discussion with James. As far as I can tell, James has not indicated otherwise. OK I am not the most sensitive of people, but if James feels otherwise, I am happy to receive any feedback from James (in a pm if necessary).
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by Clemsy »

As far as I can tell, that James' statement reminded me of JW's view of a world that is in a mess is a fact. I can understand that it did not come to your mind or that you interpreted James' statement differently. There is a difference between my statement being absurd and you thinking it is, don't you think?
In the given context it's absurd because the comparison is loaded. I would certainly choose my imagery much more carefully as there is nothing about James' comment which would elicit a comparison with any particular religious group and all that it entails, which includes well dressed people who show up at annoying moments and upset the dogs trying to sell a bill of goods that includes making any kind of celebration sinful.

Seriously?

I find James' comment not only reasonable, but painfully obvious. To compare it to the JW is a rhetorical device meant to minimize the thought and the person behind it.

I wear a belt. Do I remind you of Santa Clause?

Would you use the same comparison with Joe Campbell's quote above? Who also said the world is a mess?
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Post by Clemsy »

In the paragraph above that, you appear to be referring (I presume) to me in both the first and third person. So, I am not sure of your intent
See the edit.
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Post by JamesN. »

If I may.

I have tried to emphasize my concern is not with an individual's right to follow a financial expression of their path. My concern is about the notion of entitled greed at the expense of everybody else. ( And I also apply this across the planet. ) My understanding of Joseph Campbell's themes reside in this direction; and my hope is that this thread will illuminate any ambiguities or misconceptions within this framework. If I am under the illusion of any misinterpretations ( fine ); that's the whole point. I have tried to illustrate as much of my understanding of Joseph Campbell's thoughts concerning this as I am aware of; but certainly there are others who may have more knowledge or insight of this than I. And what I would ask is that we at least try to stay within this parameter so as to keep any of the possibility of " projected bias " from clouding this issue. I'm just trying to keep clarity as a guide and not drift into " personal static ".

Here is the specific quote I am referring to:
" When you put the money in the wrong place it can be devastating. Where is the money going and where is it coming from in the economy of a nation, the economy of a city? That's one of the big problems. You can turn a flowering culture into a desiccating culture just by wrong channeling. "
Here is one of the reasons I feel this strongly about my position:

http://billmoyers.com/content/the-powel ... porations/

And here:

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/powell_memo_lewis/

Addendum: ( And to clear up any possible misunderstanding I personally asked Clemsy for a spot check to get clarity. )
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: In the given context it's absurd because the comparison is loaded.
It is loaded to you ... not to me.
Clemsy wrote: I would certainly choose my imagery much more carefully as there is nothing about James' comment which would elicit a comparison with any particular religious group and all that it entails, which includes well dressed people who show up at annoying moments and upset the dogs trying to sell a bill of goods that includes making any kind of celebration sinful.
Here you imagery I find loaded, the JWs I have met have been perfect and a mess.
Clemsy wrote: I find James' comment not only reasonable, but painfully obvious. To compare it to the JW is a rhetorical device meant to minimize the thought and the person behind it.
I find James' views reasonable too, but I might disagree with the emphasis here or there.
Are you not projecting your view of JWs on to me?
Clemsy wrote:I wear a belt. Do I remind you of Santa Clause?
On several levels this rhetorical device does not work for me, but it seems to work you
I can't help but read your post contains some level of anger. I am doing my best not to reflect that perceived anger, but if you do read some anger in my reply please be sure it is not there,
Clemsy wrote: Would you use the same comparison with Joe Campbell's quote above? Who also said the world is a mess?
I would have hoped my paraphrasing of Campbell, the world is fine, even with its perfection and messy bits ... it's fine.

The world is not growing worse and it is not growing better, it is just turning around as usual. Finley Peter Dunne
Last edited by romansh on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

romansh
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Post by romansh »

JamesN. wrote: My concern is about the notion of entitled greed at the expense of everybody else. ]
This where I disagree with you James ... by and large I don't see entitled greed. I see people in an unfolding universe, where we give labels to bits and pieces of that unfolding.

I am not saying whether you should or should not go after the dragon called entitled greed, but what I am suggesting understand the underlying causes for the entitled greed. This way you might find some compassion for that dragon you want to slay.You will find it is of the universe. Unless you really do believe we are automatons in the original sense of the word.

Sadly Campbell appears to have been largely silent on the concept of free will.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Rom I have sent a PM to you.

As to your post I would ask about the links I provided as evidence concerning the issue
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

JamesN. wrote: As to your post I would ask about the links I provided as evidence concerning the issue.
Not being American, I have little background in the issue.

Can you point me to rebuttal of the two links? I think it is important that we understand the 'opponents' position too.
I take your point if we don't put our efforts to what we want done than we may not get done.

On a more personal level, I am playing around in my mind with a connundrum. My wife and I bought tickets for a two week inclusive in the Dominican Republic. I have absolutely no problem with having a hedonistic two weeks on the beach.

What is bothering me how do I reconcile the effect of the flight on the carbon footprint. Do I have an 'entitled greed' for the trip or not?

When it comes to companies ... we have gone through this before, they disperse their wealth in three ways ... salaries, taxes, shares. That is assuming they make a profit.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by Clemsy »

Always interesting, Rom. I will ask you to please consider with a bit more emphasis how your posts may be perceived by others. That effort in a text medium is quite crucial and it is not enough to say "but I didn't mean it that way."

I'm saying that as the moderator.

You are consistent in deflecting, Your assumption of anger on my part isn't quite accurate. I am quite consciously not voicing any assumption as to what may be driving you.

I could. But that would be a violation of the forum guidelines.

Hint, hint.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Thank you Clemsy;

Rom;

I wanted to wait till after the holiday to respond because efforts towards the points that Clemsy has " consistently " tried to illuminate " matter " on these forums. And although ( any of us ) may from time to time drift into these " waters " during the excitement of a consideration; it can ( hijack ) the discussion and turn it into the vehicle of something else that contaminates the environment. It would be easy under these circumstances to demonize someone whom; ( not realizing what their intentions are ); could misinterprete remarks, metaphors, and whatever presented positions that are utilized; as totally different than intended; thereby turning the exploration of an idea into a endless, argumentative spiral or cycle that produces nothing but frustration. And ( like a dog chasing it's tail ); escalates the dialogue into a heated standoff of distortion thereby short-circuiting the whole purpose.

Here is something I came across that illustrates this issue within some of the heated debates all across these forums that I have " continuously " witnessed as a perfect example:
bashing/arguing that is a strawman, whereas something thrown in to distract (can be related or unrelated) is a red herring. However the strawman is also to distract from whatever the topic is.

Some of your remarks; ( whatever their intent ); could very easily be seen as ( disingenuous ) but; " giving the benefit of the doubt " to me serves more inline with the " higher order " aspect within the purpose of these conversations.


Continuing on; I specifically chose the Bill Moyers link for many reasons; one not withstanding that he was instrumental in introducing " Joseph Campbell to the general public; but also because he is one of the most knowledgeable, informed, and respected journalists working today; and ( no; I am not going to present an opposing defense ).


Again; this " topic " is about Joseph Campbell's relationship to these themes!


BTW; Rom I would respectfully ask you " not " to interject the " Free will " issue into this topic.


If this is not what you want to discuss that is perfectly fine. But since as Clemsy has pointed out before in other discussions; the guidelines direct that whomever creates the thread decides if it is staying on target; unless a moderator clarifies a further look.


Furthermore; please understand ( this is not intended as a " personal attack " on you ); but it is most certainly intended as a " clarification ".


Cheers
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: You are consistent in deflecting, Your assumption of anger on my part isn't quite accurate. I am quite consciously not voicing any assumption as to what may be driving you.
Yes you are voicing an opinion Clemsy whether as an associate or a moderator.
We all are.

I did not say I was assuming you were angry or that I had an assumption of anger on my part.

You are consistent in deflecting,
Again you bestow an intent on me.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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Post by Clemsy »

As I said, Rom, you are consistent.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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