Money, myth, and Joseph Campbell

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

James, I don't think the guidelines state that whoever starts a topic can direct its course, but this has been SOP, and rightly so. :-)
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Clemsy. My apologies if I am in error here. Perhaps my understanding needs some adjustment. Can you provide some clarity and insight on this? :)
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Not much to tell, James. Whoever starts a topic can decide its course. It's not stated directly in the Guidelines, but is understood in the spirit of things. It's only right that whoever starts a discussion defines the topic. If there is disagreement, well, that's what I'm here for. :-)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by JamesN. »

Although somewhat off between ( decide and direct ); a perfect example of misinterpretation and " misassumption " on my part.
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

I enjoy dabbling in the social sciences. Economics, psychology, sociology and anthropology all contribute a little insight on questions concerning entitlement.

When Campbell talked about the world being "a mess", it was in a very specific context. He knew and appreciated the elegant order and logic of the natural and mythological world. He fully comprehended the perfection one can find in the precision of mathematics and empirical consistency. I believe that the chaos to which he referred was what we see when we observe the enormous complexities involved with multiple human system interactions.

Human interaction involves a mix of the mythology of money, (which rests almost entirely on belief in the values of such things as commerce, currency, goods and services), with the mythologies of romantic love, family values, religion, politics, philosophy and myriad other belief systems. When the mix cannot be sorted, it does appear chaotic, and this condition shows no signs of ever having been any other way and ever being capable of lining up nicely.

Within his own discipline, Campbell could see the patterns and larger forces at work in systems of myth that did line up very nicely, indeed. He discussed the common elements of the hero's journey and the universal elements of the mythological traditions throughout the world, over much of the expanse of human history. Within a context in which he was quite at home, the world did not seem so messy.

For those who devote decades and lifetimes in similar pursuits and in other areas of knowledge, there are to be found patterns and larger forces at work. When Campbell called upon other disciplines and took a more eclectic approach to his subject, he assembled an impressive interdisciplinary verification, support and embellishment for his ideas about mythology. When he attempted to venture beyond the limits of his greatest concentration, he could not see what others were able to perceive with real clarity. Like most specialists (and everyone at some point), Professor Campbell had his blind spots. One of these was the economic complexity to which he was not privy, another was the multiple and tangled forces that drive human power relationships, and yet another was the nature and dynamics of consciousness and will.

I believe that people who concentrate on disciplines other than mythology and related topics, as well as those who study many subjects much more deeply than Campbell did, do not share his negative view about the messiness of the world. His idea that the individual ought to turn away from fixing the world and zero in on self improvement demands to be appreciated in context.

For example, in his own life, Campbell trusted and drew upon his own creative gifts, (with a smack in the face of gallingly dualistic strictures), and threw himself into making sense of what once appeared to be the mess of mythological story lines and belief systems. He fixed some crucial things in the world, and sometimes he achieved this without stopping to indulge in personal reflection. I doubt he had any of this in mind when he called the world a mess and urged the rest of us to turn inward. In that one statement, he was admitting the limits of his comprehension, and especially, he was calling attention to the limits of his patience with all the drama and inhumanity associated with the human condition.

Many of us recognize that, in time, progress will be made, (if gamma rays and megavolcanoes don't interrupt our search for the shared experience of peace, love and joy). With his approval, Campbellistas like me do not regard Campbell as scripture, and we continue the quest to make sense of the world and accept our own personal lack of perfection.

~

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Post by JamesN. »

A thoughtful considered post Carmela! Thank you. :)
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

It is a pleasure.

I can hear it now. "Yes, but can she earn a decent living?"

The price of bliss.

~

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Post by Clemsy »

Carmela, that is an interesting post, indeed. I hadn't quite looked at Campbell's quote in that light.

I consider his intent to mean that, well, stuff happens and people will be people, expressing the full continuum of human behavior from the ridiculous and demonic to the sublime. There is no material, worldly utopia. That can only be found within ourselves.

We have to embrace the world as it is in the manner the Hindu saint told him we have to say Yes! to it all.

At the end of the day, Campbell's intent was thoroughly Western, and Jungian, in impulse.The only way to save the world is through enlightened individualism, and the way to find that is by identifying and... following your bliss.

Money, in terms of myth I think, comes under the heading of desire and temptation. One is reminded of the three temptations of Christ and the three temptations of the Buddha.

Desire and temptation are, in Campbellian/Jungian terms, symbolized by the dragon which confronts the hero at the outset of the quest. Jung called them "regressive life forces" meant to push the hero back into his/her comfort zone where everything is known and familiar.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by CarmelaBear »

Clemsy wrote:There is no material, worldly utopia. That can only be found within ourselves.

...We have to embrace the world as it is in the manner the Hindu saint told him we have to say Yes! to it all.

At the end of the day, Campbell's intent was thoroughly Western, and Jungian, in impulse.The only way to save the world is through enlightened individualism, and the way to find that is by identifying and... following your bliss.
I wonder, if we all managed to find our bliss, would that somehow bring us closer to a world-wide "utopia"?

~

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Post by Clemsy »

Sure would. But things don't happen that way. Not all hero journeys are successful. I tell my students that there are no guarantees because the world doesn't act that way. A sure fire way to be miserable is to follow someone else's plan when you know, in your heart, it isn't right for you.

When you listen to your own heart, and walk your own path, then your life is yours and no one else's.

But there is no guarantee that the quest won't fail, that you won't get sick and die, that you won't get hit by a bus... I could go on.

Would the world be a better place overall if everyone listened to their hearts and lived their own lives?

Yes.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by CarmelaBear »

The first truly individualistic God-like creature could be someone who might be the product of a Manhattan Project of genetic engineering, nano tech, medical genius and extreme attention to detail by the world's most talented humans. The upbringing, education, leadership and life's work of the first person to experience seriously healthy long life, prosperity, personal bliss and a reasonable level of access to charismatic and institutional power may earn our attention, respect and trust.

We design imaginary heroes all the time. When humanity is ready to design a near-perfect human being, such a person might be an acceptable focal point for progress toward a world in which we all enjoy having our Maslow list of needs satisfied and our positive potential unleashed.

~

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Post by JamesN. »

This is really getting toward the domain of where I hoped this thread might lead. The only thing I might add here that speaks from my own experience is identifying what the issues are and what is really pushing from the inside.

For instance an artist spends much of the early time in their career trying to find out what the rules are; what the technique that may be required is; finding out and identifying what their voice is; and then connection to that which is speaking to them from the inside and following that. ( Of course not necessarily in that specific order but more like a process or really what I would call " alchemy " where as Joseph Campbell said: " The gold is elicited out of the physical matter ".

This to me speaks in terms of the " life process " as well. Of course I don't think one can look at this in " absolute " terms; say east verses west for instance. But the life path as it unfolds indeed calls forth the challenges unique to the individual and the circumstances that may dictate " the adventure ".

( In short identifying or getting a clearer understanding of the " two-way mirror "; ( or the transcendent element ); is one way I think someone could look at this in terms of " the extra degree of difficulty " a person might encounter within this process. I was just reading how Joseph was suggesting the " comparative approach " helps with things in getting a clearer understanding of a form or an image and how that can help translate the " meaning " of something. ( I hope that this is not too convoluted. ) :lol:

Nice stuff going on here.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Andreas »

Interesting...
As a person wealth increase their feelings of compassion and empathy go down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ8Kq1wucsk

Naturally, there are a lot of points in this research that I disagree with. One of them being quoting Bill Gates for a speech he gave about inequality, that certainly made me laugh. That being said, there are some points that I think are valid.

8)
Last edited by Andreas on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas this is exactly the type of material I hoped this thread would generate. Especially things like the addition of the 40 second video he mentioned as an empathy builder. In the comments Paul Ramsay goes on to say:

Don't focus on the idea of money when you watch this. Stay focused on the idea that the research they have conducted really looks at how people exhibit compassion and empathy.
Excellent; thank you for sharing this. 8)
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Post by Andreas »

:)

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