Redefining "Elderhood"

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JamesN.
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Redefining "Elderhood"

Post by JamesN. »

The topic of aging is something which I think might be helpful to address since Joseph Campbell themes concerning this last stage of life are not often given as much coverage as some of the rest of his work. One of the people I have come across recently is Dr. Bill Thomas who is widely recognized within the healthcare community as one of the major innovators for reform in Senior Care and assisted living. His work in IMHO marries perfectly with many of Joseph Campbell ideas and holds tremendous potential looking ahead for changing the outdated models and perceptions about how seniors are percieved now in place. Here are a couple of videos concerning his work. (A real maverick); he has been on this mission for quite some time and his new concepts such as "Elderhood" and the new assisted living concept called the "Eden Alternative" has garnered much praise globally.

(Here are some of his ideas):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKDs9D4Oh94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvVSD0uq018

(Websites):

http://changingaging.org/

http://www.edenalt.org/


(A page from AARP lifereimagined.org that is a recommended resource of his.):

http://institute.lifereimagined.org/sig ... n-Overview


(Here are a couple of clips of Joseph Campbell on Jung concerning this subject that may help to widen the topic even more while adding some extra clarity as well.):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKbOY5yg8-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWICd_ZD9MI


This is a very large subject but one must start somewhere. Idea
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Dr. Thomas is discovering a resource that has been lost in modern society. I really think it will be up to the elders to support each other. The young are too busy just getting by.

Campbell's comments were spot on as usual. I liked the idea that in old age we revisit the functions of the psyche, especially those we ignored, but it is too late to relive them. I would appreciate any comments or pointers about this from anyone more versed in Jungian literature.

IMHO understanding the diversity and power of the functions of the psyche is a critical next step for our evolution.

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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:James,

Dr. Thomas is discovering a resource that has been lost in modern society. I really think it will be up to the elders to support each other. The young are too busy just getting by.

Campbell's comments were spot on as usual. I liked the idea that in old age we revisit the functions of the psyche, especially those we ignored, but it is too late to relive them. I would appreciate any comments or pointers about this from anyone more versed in Jungian literature.

IMHO understanding the diversity and power of the functions of the psyche is a critical next step for our evolution.


Ron I could not agree more with this.

I first came across Dr. Thomas while watching several features on aging that our local PBS station was sponsoring and he kept popping up all over the place. Then when I saw him featured in several clips of the "Alive Inside" documentary I went and got his most recent book: "Second Wind; Navigating The Passage To A Slower, Deeper, And More Connected Life" and am about half way through it.

His ideas seem in many ways to illuminate much of what Joseph Campbell's themes keep pointing out that it's how mythology and the (stages of life) not only inform us about who we are but also where we are going on our independent journeys. And that each generation is interconnected to the other in this "timeless cycle" of nature. And furthermore as you so intuitively pointed out; ( at least to my way of thinking); that indeed many of Carl Jung's themes enter into this very weave or fabric of our very DNA of the Psyche and that all of these different components work together into one grand symphony; if you will if I'm not overstating things a bit here; each season following another and informing another.

What Dr. Thomas is suggesting; (and you also if I understand your post correctly); is stating what I believe to be an obvious white elephant in that we have lost or broken this natural eternal connection cycle of " young to old ". And by institutionalizing the aging process and placing the emphasis of society's trajectory onto an economic model will become more and more dysfunctional; unsupportable and simply will not work as time goes on. (There is also the global reality of the elderly population overtaking the younger's ability to support it by 2050 which figures show that 1 in 5 people on the planet will be over the age of 65. This further supports much of what he is trying to say about why changing this perception is not only necessary but vital to the very survival of the human race. And the "dehumanizing" of aging as an inconvenience to be shuttered away from society into a compartmentalized, hospital like setting or environment along with an increasing societal focus toward a consumerism envisioned healthcare system of nursing home facilities not only robs the actual ends and meaning of living of these people from life itself but also those to whom they are connected.

It might also be appropriate here I believe to suggest that " these people " might also be a mirror of what is coming down the road to meet us; that is anyone of us beginning to look at retirement; (huh!). And this is what he is talking about with the term "Elder-hood". (BTW the AARP is also on board and full agreement with many of his ideas as is evident in the "Re-Imagine Aging" website.

One other thing I might add that Joseph Campbell brings up about Jung and the "Individuation process" that I keep running into is that he emphasizes quite often through out his work that in later life this process itself becomes much more of a pronounced and dominant factor in the later life stages as witnessed by the emergence of the shadow and the process of it's integration. (Hopefully at some point our good friend and moderator Cindy will be able to stop by lend her wise and critical eye for counsel and clarity for correctness concerning this.) In the meantime this is the best I can offer at the moment at what this seems to me to suggest.

Soooo; if I may stop here for a moment from my somewhat loose and inarticulate attempt at clarity on these issues; perhaps you or someone else may have thoughts they would like to share. (Indeed there are certainly wide ranging themes contained within this topic; and it is not just about getting old.) :wink:

Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

I have to say from my own experience that retiring is like going back to school. Dr. Thomas is right. It is a growing experience.

Like most people I have visited relatives in old age homes, and while I'm sure that people react differently to that environment, I couldn't imagine living there. I told my wife that I never want to be forced into that situation. For me quality of life is more important than just living. I imagined ending it all like "Thelma and Louise," by driving off a cliff. But in her wisdom she reminded me that there are right to die states for such situations.

On to a cheerier note. I thought a little about the image of the old in various cultures and came up with a couple of interesting examples. In Hindu culture, when a person gets old they are supposed to leave society and commune with God in the wilderness. I imagine they don't last very long in such an environment.

Our society does it a little differently. We leave home to another smaller home where we commune with drugs and the TV set. However, with help we last a lot longer.

It seems to me that since these old age homes are already there, perhaps we can do what Dr. Thomas suggests and turn them into centers of elder wisdom.

Another interesting image of the old is presented in "Don Quixote'" where the old guy is nuts. This was a very important book for our culture and I think this has contributed to our perception of the elderly.

Finally I will finish with an old classic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mRec3VbH3w

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Post by JamesN. »

Nicely put Ron.

Yes that is very much what I also have been drawing from this material lately. Originally I was considering combining the "Alive Inside" thread with this one because they both deal with some of the same issues; but I finally decided against that because there were other concerns that might have made the subject matter more like herding cats because of the (musical) element involved. But yes there is this profound awareness that the layers of your life and "Personhood" are constantly being peeled away from your day to day trajectory in later life. Ron Cohn; who was the social worker in the IPOD Project film said exactly that during one point in the film and it was this illumination that somehow personalized music could help re-connect someone's memory with their sense of who they once were that was so profound.

Also it should be noted that Dr. Bill Thomas underlines that it is the actual (engagement) and "interconnectedness" of human relationships that helps to bring "meaning" into the experience of living from which everyone benefits instead of just mere existence and the passage of time. It is also the young as well as the old that have so much to bring to the definitions of what these values actually have to do with not only living in the moment but what it means to actually be truly alive. And the idea of mentorship; (or the person behind the child); is another that should also be kept in mind. There is nothing that gives so penetrating an insight for what lies ahead in the life process than the hard-earned life-wisdom of elders who have already traveled the same road the young are starting to experience. And for the old of the joy and fragrance of youth's flower along with providing the realization of full-circle life attainment is another experience exchanged within this interconnectedness of intergenerational relationships. True bonds of human knowledge that have been established and passed down that connect us throughout the millennia of human history. Yes this is the kind of reconnected bond of consciousness of life-learned lessons that must be passed on from the old to the young within nature's timeless cycles; (ever new - ever the same); that must be recovered and re-emphasized in preparation for the " Hero's Journey of the young for the future; (at least IMHO). Human kind must have more to live for than just some economic vehicle of homogenized culture that offers only material rewards as food for meaning in the realization as Joseph once put it of: "the awesome mystery that is existence". (I hope you'll pardon me if I get a little carried away about some of this but these ideas are not always easy to put into words.)

(At any rate to continue on):

Joseph mentions on page, 88; in Diane Osbon's "Reflections In The Art Of Living: A Joseph Campbell Companion"; that old age is a time of blooming; the realization of life's fulfillment; of attainment; of the bringing forth who and what you are; and not to be seen as just some situation of loss and decay. No your energies are not the same but your consciousness is different also; and is the fruit of a life lived by and within it's own volition; regardless of the trials. It is to be seen and valued through a different lens than the one society offers as relevant. You are the one who determines it's meaning; and as you reflect upon your journey taken it should inform you of it's own truths for which you have struggled; and not some socially misguided sense of sanctified self righteousness.

Mixing plants, animals, intercultural as well as intergenerational relationships are also a part of his new vision in the "Eden Alternative" aging project which is quite a radical departure from this older archaic mindset and offers fresh hope for a newer type of model. It was when I saw his film about this whole new approach which is already beginning to be being implemented by small communal living projects in different areas globally that I became aware that anything even existed outside the box of the usual antiquated stereotypical idea of a nursing home. (Of course now that I'm just beginning to move into this elder-hood retirement sort of mindset all these new ideas have been a rather shocking revelation considering how young I am at this getting old business; ha, ha.)

There is also another point he makes about slowing down the pace of one's life so that they can actually see and enjoy where they are; and as a matter of fact he makes a rather emphatic point that indeed "Adulthood" is not only part of the problem but (IS) the problem and one of the main roadblocks to understanding the obliviousness or lack of consciousness that contributes to a societal malaise. (What indeed are the ends of living and not just the means by which we exist or survive.)

Yes Ron I think as you say for many of us this is definitely going to be a lot like going back to school and that Elders certainly need to support each other. (Carl Jung's insights here I think are going to be huge.) We as a global society have for whatever reasons lost some of these ideas of timeless life-cycle connections; and that Joseph Campbell's work as noted Jungian psychologist James Hillman pointed out; has more than anyone helped to bring some of these realizations back into the everyday consciousness of modern life by helping to show how myth is in many ways the vehicle by which they are realized. And perhaps the possibility of some new and future myth as Joseph mentioned in some far off future time might indeed emerge from us becoming more aware of these eternal truths and that we as human beings might be better equipped to understand and appreciate this journey of life that we are on no matter at what stage we are living it.


( Although It's been awhile since I've done much posting and it may take me a bit to get back into the swing of things so to speak; I just want to say how nice it feels to be back here again talking about the kind of deep meaningful subject matter that these forums have always come to represent. I've truly missed this place and the unique sense of community and connection that it has always offered; and I am so very glad to see it's return once more.)


Namaste :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Roncooper »

I found this on Facebook is about elderhood. It is a bit long winded, but it makes some good points. She is a doctor of Jungian Psychology.

Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estes
January 28 at 12:13pm ·


Dear Brave Souls: For My Brother and Sister Elders, and elders about-to-be soon enough, and those who will be elders some day a bit farther down the road from now:

In the world views I see -- my traveling now 'OVER the hill' --not as in depleted -- be serious-- but as in traveler, sojourner, like many of the elders... accomplished in the endurance, in the mapping, in the far and near views, despite but perhaps because of all our 'fall downs' and 'where the heck am I?' along the way...

We, together my dear elder peers, my elder brothers and sisters... we are now walking into the long valley of Life with the cragged beauties and perilous conditions of past/present/future Life set all around as mountain walls --writ upon by the weathers of our lives.

This set of realizations that we have truly 'accumulated', truthfully without blinders... into sky high ranges, leading us to what I've coined "the far encampment' began to arrive, long and long ago.

Long before we could claim a ninth decade, or an eighth decade on earth, or a seventh, [the last, meaning one would be in their sixties in chronological years.]

This awareness we carry now... that we are definitely at the time of life, where three-quarters of years alotted to us thereabouts, are behind us, and far fewer ahead... this awareness that in the psyche, as in the heart, there is a hidden long valley with a climb to an escarpment at the end of it, a climb from which one can and will soar... is a knowing of great magnitude; changing much if not even all things within us in terms of present and future plans and laying the past to rest.

That escarpment we are moving toward is to use to perhaps at first soar and land back on Earth. Soar and land back on earth.

And/ But, then, one day, a final soaring.... as all harnesses and lacings break free at last... The intimation of such a place to launch from, for a while, and in the end, a leavetaking... is not tied to wits, nor some fluffy 'pretty idea'.

It is dirt-swimming if need be, it is dust storms that occlude and then reveal, it is fires extinguished suddenly in the night, and new fires lit from only straw and stick, and it is being rendered in all those. Meaning flensed of one's skin and... growing new, and all attendant birth pains and new life determinations.

But the intimation that there is such a place, that there is a far encampment and now, despite all plans to the contrary, one veers inexhorably and begins to walk, stumble, toward that village in the middle of nowhere, but under the same starry sky one has always lived. One more stop under our sheltering 'roof of lights'. Our Home. The new, last place-- from which to launch in many directions.

Some can hear the call to veer, for it can come over and over, often vaguely at first, but they can slam in hard -- most often in later years, but also, can come sometimes in extraordinary circumstances of health challenges, and extreme travail, in younger years, even though it not be time perhaps for one to take up permanent residency there, yet.

This awareness of the far outpost, and one's place there, can often accompany susto, which is not of the outer world, but a flying apart, like an atom smasher of the interior previously held view of much of/ all of life. A view of some or much that no longer sustains one's true Spirit and true Soul.

Sudden realization of the vapidity of x and y, is an expected and ongoing set of rites of passage throughout all of life. But this one is different, for those who have the eyes to see, ears to hear, this one is about one's final home place on Earth and also the final launching pad toward what some would call the Eternal.

In reality, I would shelter and counsel the young and unleash you to do so also about the ways and means to the final encampment when it is time... for the overculture often fails utterly in preparing the young for the interior life that lights up like a Milky Way, the entire person when present. In that sojourn the light and the love within oneself doubles and triples in velocity and volume to heed the Call, to take action to implement, as we gather more years.

The interior life that has a deep rooted basis has outcomes of contentment, ease in remembering what is real and what is illusion. It is tied to a decent heart, and a good mind for one's own value and for the value of others. It is tied to insight into what to many younger, will appear opaque or hidden. Only because of lack of experience. They too eventually will be able to uncannily 'see.'

The realization of 'that birthing and launching place' that calls to the elder, that home place of true self as never conceived or known before, contrary to overculture and certain shinkdom concepts-- is not tied to a condition exactly, and not necessarily tied to an exact age, as though age is a line in the sand and once one crosses it, one is 'whatever.'

No we human beings with angelic bloodlines are far far more complex than that.

Permit me to repeat, for it is so salient: Awareness of The Passage to 'the far encampment' and one's place in that cosmic pattern is not tied to a certain condition or timetable. The young are not stupid unwritten-upon beings. They are full beings, learning to read the writing by that Greater, which IS written upon them. We too. So, they, also.

This uncanny, down to earth awareness of 'far encampment' --a very different way of living and perceiving and thinking, is most often brought about by collision of values between soul and overcultural aspects which exist in many kinds.

It is not a crisis of ego, wherein one suddenly wants a red sports car or a new spouse or a whatever ego might long for.

It is often more a sudden or slow awakening about 'what is most important to soul and to spirit.' It is a return to Cosmic Task in full depth, breadth and especially actions.

There IS a longing when one touches the concept of the encampment: It is longing for, and to live in, daily, nightly, True Self. At last. Or for first time, but irregardless, for the Ever, now.

Though as an elder, there can be tangential issues from the overculture, that have come as a result of one's prior decisions, or prior twists of fate, like the middle of a ven diagram-- the rite of passage to glimpse the 'farther world' occurs, often in thunder, in the midst of the mundane.

And can occur in children, teens especially, young adults, any age group. But/and taking up domecile there in the far encampment in permanency comes from matters additional than just number of years lived.

How do elders know it is time? In my humble
experience, there is a huge soaring and a thud-landing in late life that is unparalleled to those glimpses that come before if one is paying attention.

That sudden flight and thud-landing that says 'we are no longer in Kansas and never will be again.' That we are almost Home again. That if we will continue to strive straight into the winds and weathers, meet the challenges now in our elder years, we will reach that locus that is so radiant, that locus no one and no thing can strip from us, that way of being and especially SEEING far, that there we can and will live the rest of our days... in far more peace, and far more energy and far more meaning and creative life, than ever before.

Why? Not because we have 'more time' on our hands. Exactly the opposite: because we have so little time left in comparison.

I dont know that this is everyone's journey. I know it is mine, and many many of my peers: Our home is this far encampment. Though I know some trivialize it, and think it can be another romp on the carnival that much 'spirituality' has fallen too as it has been taken up by the overculture, in fact, the 'far encampment' cannot be visited like a tourist. It is a way of life.

And when as one ages, the curious map of the whereabouts of this far encampment, drops at your feet, delivered by a winged one in one form or another, one then knows as hard fact, not enamourment or wishful thinking, not vapid-izing as the overculture teaches-- but that we must gather up what we can, our ancestral remnants and robes... and go.

Truly Go.

Launch out now in old age, not as trim and strong in certain ways as when young. But launch out in full faith that we will somehow be led, be ministered to, somehow find the arm to lean on if need be, somehow meet and remember in such joy our fellow travelers we came to earth with, on mission, long long ago.

To annoint one another in the vally-earth of it, the rain of it, the star shedding of it all... to have lost and then refind self again, in often shockingly well and strong forms.

And each of my old brothers and sisters are old enough then to understand this -- each in his and her own way and to make proper and useful ablutions toward seating oneself in True Home that has always been there, but often run from or ignored, or delayed for just one more turn on the not-so-merry-go-round, or just 'not yet Time.'

The tasks in what I named 'the far encampment' are sometimes harsh, for they require truths and endurance and minimization of much, shedding of much-- not self selected: instead, challenging right down to the bones.

We are called to sometimes painful expansions that our hard work is mean to make show above ground. For our sakes, but also for the sakes of those younger, so as to gently say, 'Come, come, as you go along in life: this is the way through.'

So THAT instruction, rather than being left out in the salt flats without water, our young are provided the cool drink of Knowing which directions to go in when 'their time' comes.

Aging aint for sissies. There is much to the Much, yet ahead. Exciting, myserious, challenging Sweet Mystery of Life.

The words 'Serving' and 'being a Helping Companion to Greater,' are far far more meaningful as one comes deeper into the work of the elders' time. Each is his own way. Each in her own way.

There are some central features I can note, and there is also a customized journey for each elder that is different than the overculture's trajectory it tries to force elders into.

I say, simply and gently but with conviction, regarding the overculture's vapid ideas of the elder: Resist.

Resist the overculture's absurdist, often insulting ideas of old age and elders unless it serves the Soul. Resist especially those who say they have 'studied old age' as a science. And the 'behemother they" know how all others ought live.

No. No one knows but you and your soul. Consult Soul, and then take the best of what might be offered by overculture, and/or create your own neverbeforeseen ways and means. We ARE creators first and foremost, not sheep.

This time of life is not about where to live. It is about How and Why to live, in relation to Whom and What and one's own KNOWN and DEEPLY FELT Cosmic Task...

that is, the Deep Calling that comes from and leads us toward the Last Encampment.

To my brothers and sisters who are already on the trek here in the long valley that leads through our lives written upon the mountain rages --toward the beautyand challenges now and ahead: Courage. Endurance. Love.

As you see in my poem, The Bus:
' My one good leg for your bad leg.
Your one good arm for my weak one.'

This is how we go in love and regard for one another Brother, Sister.

As I so often tell you:

"We are walking
different
pathways, but we are all
walking along
together.

"We are "The Ultimate
Half-drunken on the Soul"
Singers.
We are a limping, climbing,
stumbling,
soaring
eternal La posada.

"We ARE
the Conference of the Birds--
We each
carry
the golden feather
over our hearts--
so many of us
helping
each other as we go,
leaning on what we know,
learning what we dont know,
and with no
caring heart left stranded.

"By lorry or travois,
by carrying in our arms
and most certainly our hearts,
we are all returning each other back
to true home....
all moving toward the farthest
True Home.
Together."

If you, at whatever stage or age, might not understand all I've gently written to you here, despair not. You will. In your own ways.

If not now, then one day. Tuck this away and take it out during another turn of the Earth now and then, and you will see more and more over years, over time, how you too have caught glimpses of True Home that comes into certain sight...

And one day, as gracefully as possible, you will as billions of souls before you have done, you wlll let go of the last ties that bind oneself to Overculture only, ties that do not serve the Child Spirit and the Soul, do not serve the Cosmic Task.

You will choose anew then, and do-overs, and new formerly inconceivable ways and means that are goodness for you to follow. You will see. Literally, you will See.

"and white hair that lights the way. . .

and how, as the eyes grow dim,

they see far,

farther,

farthest."

with love,
dr. e

This term, 'cosmic task' I first heard from my comadre Martita, Montessori diosa, which is written by Maria Montessori the farseeing educator who first said that all children have souls, and that street children of course, can be educated. Be serious. Mil gracias gemela.

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Post by JamesN. »

Ron this is truly a magnificent and eloquent piece. Long perhaps; but from the my humble understanding of the Jungian process of "Individuation" this is as beautifully and "poetically" rendered as I anything I have yet come across about (aging into "Elderhood"). Thank you so very much for sharing it!


(I especially liked this part. )

Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estes
January 28 at 12:13pm


I say, simply and gently but with conviction, regarding the overculture's vapid ideas of the elder: Resist.

Resist the overculture's absurdist, often insulting ideas of old age and elders unless it serves the Soul. Resist especially those who say they have 'studied old age' as a science. And the 'behemother they" know how all others ought live.

No. No one knows but you and your soul. Consult Soul, and then take the best of what might be offered by overculture, and/or create your own neverbeforeseen ways and means. We ARE creators first and foremost, not sheep.

This time of life is not about where to live. It is about How and Why to live, in relation to Whom and What and one's own KNOWN and DEEPLY FELT Cosmic Task...

that is, the Deep Calling that comes from and leads us toward the Last Encampment.



Outstanding! 8)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Roncooper »

James,

I rediscovered this paper about Maslow and what he called the plateau experience. I don't think he had time to fully understand how it evolves with age.

Here is the link.

http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-27-95-01-001.pdf

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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Maslow was the psychologist who coined the term peak experience for the greatest moments of our lives.
When he was older he had a massive heart attack and had to face his death. This was not a near death experience but a realization that death is near. This realization awoke him to the plateau experience of living a life that is both in time and eternal.

I think this can be a part of elderhood even without the traumatic experience. IMHO a person, who is capable of accepting the plateau experience will open up to it as they approach the end of their lives. To me it is a natural step in the process of dissolving back into everything, and the heightened awareness, the enhanced beauty is a hug from the ocean of being.

Campbell said we should not cling to the body. We should identify with the light and not the bulb. If we do this I think this awareness comes automatically, but if we cling then old age is a slow death.

I think the knowledge of the heightened experience before death has been around for a long time. You once posted an operatic aria by Puccini and so i thought for fun I would post one that addresses this experience. In the video the man is going to be killed by firing squad in an hour and he sings "I have never loved life so much."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxdiJ74AL5Y

Ron

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Post by JamesN. »

Ron a very thoughtful post; yes the Puccini piece is an excellent expression of this kind of powerful peak life moment which can take many forms.

I must apologize for not getting back to you earlier but it was late at night when I first started reading it and unfortunately my tired eyes had to stop. I've been in the middle of a project and had intended to finish it later.

It's interesting about Maslow's experience for I believe Jung also had a somewhat similar one although I can't seem to remember the exact detail's. He personally chronicles this in his famous book: "Dreams, Memories, and Reflections".

http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?categoryid=123

Indeed as you mention part of this last stage of life is very much about finding meaning. As Jung suggests within the "Individuation" process this particular emphasis begins to take on a more major role as one's life progresses:

(The Later Threshold):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWICd_ZD9MI


Here is some more information with Joseph's thoughts on Jung's themes as related to the Individuation process.

(Integration):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJu5oWThHx8

(Shadow):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3x6D24UDPY

(Close friend; colleague and noted Jungian psychologist; James Hillman on the Senex and Puer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Zo2PxPXx4



And although you mention the "peak moment" as an example it is the movement in this direction that Joseph seems to indicate as what the psyche is moving toward. A surplus of Libido seems to be one of the conditions that first summons this change of focus he talks about where because the "undeveloped and suppressed" elements of the shadow: (an aspect of the ego); have not been given a voice the shadow and it's integration begins to become more of a dominant concern; and "the long season" as he calls it; which starts to take on a more important position within the life process. If I'm understanding his description correctly it is this process towards a more "balanced sense of wholeness" that is the goal of (Individuation) as one moves through this latter life stage. And like the "light in the bulb" you mention Joseph refers to the light as human consciousness that does not die; we leave the body behind as we journey towards our final destination; whatever that may be. :idea:


(As always my understanding of this material continues to be "a work in progress" so to speak; so please forgive any mistakes or misconceptions concerning it's accuracy. Cindy could of course finesse this humble description in a much better way; but alas it's the best I can do at the moment.) :roll:


Cheers my friend. :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

The messages from Campbell are profound. I don't completely agree that in this day and age those with skill are forced to retire. He certainly wasn't replaced by someone better, and I know many people who could have worked much later than they did. I think he was referring to an earlier age.

That being said the rest was great. From personal experience, I strongly agree that we live our lives by the rules of a dominant function of the psyche and when we retire we are forced to readdress those we ignored.

We may live our lives using our willful competitive spirit or our intellects, but when we retire we must face our undeveloped emotions or our unawakened consciousness.

We join meditation classes, learn to play the guitar, or spend more time with our grandchildren, but like he said, we cannot do it like we would have 30 years earlier. These are more like hobbies than vocations. They enrich and support who we are, but we are already grown.

I think that you are right in that this is a time of shadow work, but I think in elderhood it is about accepting the shadow. Accepting that fear is the shadow of caring and sadness is the shadow of happiness.

It is no longer about healing the self (little s) but embracing the Self (big s), which is not optional. A person can sit in the corner and say no, or they can join the dance of union. The union is inevitable, it is just a matter of style.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

After rereading our last two posts, I think I am too fatalistic. I am going to rethink healing.

I have family stuff for a few days. Then Ill be back.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

I came across this really great article this morning that to me is one of the best pieces I have yet encountered about what the Senex /Puer and Crone represent and thought it would fit very nicely into this thread. The "Puer/Senex-Crone" represent major Jungian figures within the Individuation process and this piece has been very helpful for me in getting a much better grasp of the concepts.

http://www.jungatlanta.com/articles/sum ... e-sage.pdf


(Again the James Hillman video clip from above.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Zo2PxPXx4


(Here are some extra Wikipedia descriptions.):


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_old_man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puer_aeternus


There are more video clips of James Hillman talking about this online; but this is enough for the moment.

Cheers
:)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

James thanks for the pdf. A nice gem to have.. :)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:James thanks for the pdf. A nice gem to have.. :)
(Thank you Andeas; you are most kind.) If you are interested I've just finished reading another fascinating pdf I came across on Jung's: "Transcendent Function"; which I posted in Cindy's Jungian thread:

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=285

This is one of the most insightful things I have yet come across that deals with the "Individuation" process. I was torn on whether to post it here or not since for obvious reason's it basically addresses strictly Jungian material and may be better suited there. (Still thinking about that; but for now I'm leaving it there.) :?

IMHO it is directly related to the archetypal symbols discussed above; but I'm still working my way through properly understanding all these concepts and how all this material inter-relates. (As they say: "a work in progress"; no? :wink: )

At any rate it's good to see you back and I hope all is well.

Cheers
:)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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