Education past, present and future

Introducing people of all ages to mythology... in pre-college educational curricula, youth orgs, the media, etc. Share your knowledge, stories, unit and lesson plans, techniques, and more.

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

David, recommendation accepted. Here goes…



Social systems tend to reflect current views of the world or primary social foci. For example, medieval feudalism reflected an earth/God centered, hierarchic worldview. Democracy reflects a Newtonian view of the world based on reason and a world that operates according to the laws of physics (with a splash of Einsteinian relativity? What would a social system based on quantum theory look like?) However, remnants of the older view still tend to persist.



The evolution of education can be viewed in a similar manner. Medieval education (primarily for the elite) was monastic in nature, and the architecture reflects this. With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, mass education, as practiced in the U.S., reflected the concept of assembly line mass production. Those urban schools so much in need of repair or replacement do look like factories. However, early on much of the ‘monastic’ element remained: school uniforms, prayer, strict (often abusive) discipline. Today, modern school architecture is reminiscent of… well , malls. Although the internal structure (grade levels for instance) is a remnant of the older model, consumerism and popular culture has become a powerful, and detrimental, influence on education.



Question: Where are we going? Are current political ‘fixes’ appropriate or reactionary? How can Campbell’s concept of creative mythology be used in education?


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Post by twokay »

Good topic.....my response in regards to your observations is a question....

Does one generation have a legal or moral right to impose its values or visions on another whether older or newer...... or should a societys and it various generations values be selfdetermined or democratically determined..... and if so who gets to vote? Who values are we to espouse or cling to or are there values old/new/other we as a society are'nt at this time in the wake of 9/11, technology or other that we aren't even considering?



Alfred

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Post by twokay »

When a society moves from the condition of mere survial and existence, it then begins to take on and sometimes impose a more elevated condition of conscious and conscience. In the same way, it is the attitute and treatment of its young that reflects, in many ways the maturity of the society in regards to the real issues it faces.

Perhaps then the answer might lie in giving voice to its young, within reason, as to the kind of society that is wanted. Some times learning, afterall, is a twoway street, and the idea of teacher/ student though elevated from master/slave does not reflect the conditions of a just society. Youth know much inherantly I believe but I find what they lack is the depth necessary to impart true conviction to their knowing.

Some things they seem to traditionally disregard are the values of time, money, democracy, sharing, compassion, empathy, fairness, enviornment, economy, history. They are not diseinterested though and perhaps we simply need to ask them what they might like to learn about and so doing gain a clearer and better picture and insight into humanity and its soul.



Alfred

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Post by Clemsy »

Alfred,



“idea of teacher/ student though elevated from master/slave does not reflect the conditions of a just society.”



Don’t quite agree with you there. The structure necessary for nurturing a child’s growth needs to be developmentally appropriate. Make no mistake, we are not only providing academic skills, but also shaping socially acceptable behaviors… or trying to anyway. Most of my colleagues are excellent people. They model, just through who they are, respect, honesty, fairness, just authority, etc. If not for these people, many students would only have the nightmares at home to define the idea of adult man or woman.





Alfred wrote:

“Does one generation have a legal or moral right to impose its values or visions on another whether older or newer...... or should a societys and it various generations values be selfdetermined or democratically determined..... and if so who gets to vote?”



Don’t think it’s that simple. Ideas change and the society begins to behave in a different manner and generalize the new ideas to every corner. Ideas propagate like an invisible gas. It’s not that there’s a group of people deciding this, that or the other thing (hmmm… That would be the THEY that everyone always blames stuff on.) I think it’s the lack of people noticing what’s going on as it’s happening. For example: Many parents seem to think that because it’s out there it’s okay for their kids. So you have 8 year olds with a TV in his/her bedroom. They watch wrestling (don’t get me started on that one), play gory video games and watch R rated, and sometimes pornographic, movies. When politicians, clergy, etc. start complaining their answer is to regulate the entertainment industry. The parents of the 8 year old agree 100%. No one stands up and says, “Mom, Dad… take the tv out of the kids room, set parameters and monitor the child’s viewing behavior at home and at friend’s homes. Here’s how you may want to do that.” Duh.



Hey Gracie and you other educators, I’m waiting for you to weigh in here!



Clemsy


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Post by gracie »

As an educator, I feel that my first role is to be a role model for the children. I love to learn, and I teach kids how to learn. I am very fortunate to work in a school that allows me to do this. When I returned to teaching after raising my own kids, I substituted at many different schools and had several offers. My choice wasn't based on salary - it was on the principal.



The Blue Ribbon school I turned down is the "best" school in our state. But, fifth-grade is not self-contained and it is homogeneously grouped in Reading and Math. Also, Clemsy, you will be interested to hear that they do not have any self-contained Special Ed. classes! When I asked why, they said that "they" are better educated in other districts. This translates to - they pay other districts to take them!



My school does not departmentalize, and feels that we can better meet the needs of the children if we know them! It is impossible to make sweeping generalizations about public schools, b/c they are all so different. We have 8 fifth-grade teachers, and all of us have different approaches and comfort levels. We are realistic enough to realize that some of us are better with certain children. I usually get the emotionally sensitive kids, and another may get another profile. My school is excellent at communicating between grade-levels, and working together. I'm already working with a fourth-grader with an extreme anxiety disorder. My Resource support teacher wants to do a play with her, so we are working to pull that together. When the children see all of us working together so well, they do the same.



I am so much more optimistic than I was when my kids were in fifth-grade. There have been so many good changes. We all hate the standardized tests, especially the ESPA test, but there are other changes that make up for it. We do not teach the tests b/c the tests keep changing!



Twokay eluded to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Very true. Self-actualizing can not take place when a person's basic needs are not being met, and we do have children that are being neglected and abused. Awareness and compassion are all we can provide. Schools are recognizing the behaviors of kids that are lacking on the basic levels of survival. Usually the kids that exhibit tribal behaviors - body piercing, tatoos, gang rituals, they are the ones that are desperate to feel accepted somewhere - anywhere! We educate the kids to recognize this in themselves, and offer choices of self-help.



I have placed myself in an arena that is positive and hopeful, and I try to show the kids the power they have every time they make a choice. From where I stand, the horizon is beautiful. I sense a Renaissance too, Clemsy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: gracie on 2002-04-20 14:04 ]</font>

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Hi Gracie,



"they do not have any self-contained Special Ed. classes! When I asked why, they said that "they" are better educated in other districts. This translates to - they pay other districts to take them!"



Common practice and also a violation of federal and (at least in NY) state law. Won't change unless a parent says the word 'attorney'. Even then the district may only create a personal program for that one kid.



"We are realistic enough to realize that some of us are better with certain children."



There's a thought! However, 8 teachers allow for a lot of flexibility and the application of what we know about learning styles. Sounds like a great situation.



" Usually the kids that exhibit tribal behaviors - body piercing, tatoos, gang rituals, they are the ones that are desperate to feel accepted somewhere - anywhere!"



All kids, especially adolescents, exhibit tribal behaviors. It's up to the adults, however, to define the parameters of the tribe and initiate them into the greater tribe of the community. Without adult leadership, kids will establish their own tribes with rules, territory, symbols, secret handshakes, tattooing etc. Lord of the Flies is a classic for a reason!



Sounds like you work in teacher heaven. I started my career in the inner city (Do I have stories!) and currently work in an old mill town in upstate NY which was bypassed by the Thruway. Large underclass with the resultant social problems. District is financially strapped. We're laying off teachers and increasing class size. The state ed. department thinks it knows what it's doing by freezing funding... which means lowering funding. Sheesh.



I figure the state commissioner (who once said about special ed students, "We need to get out of the mindset that these kids 'can't do it'! I was working with severely retarded children at the time) will lower the bar on the exams, declare victory and quit the field. I give him a few more years. Then maybe we can get back to business.



But I love it. Nothing like a kid's smile, seeing the light bulb go on over a head or helping one through a problem successfully.



Here's a good quote (Can't remember the author as the name center in my brain is glitchy):



"There's something wrong with a system that forces a student to stop work on a poem because a bell has rung."



Peace,

Clemsy



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clemsy on 2002-04-22 06:49 ]</font>



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clemsy on 2002-04-22 06:50 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clemsy on 2002-04-22 06:51 ]</font>

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Post by gracie »

No teacher heaven exists!! We all get disenchanted with our careers sometimes, but I surround myself with teacher friends that love the job more days than hate it!



My district is extremely diverse. We have a pretty even mix of students from the very poor to the very rich. Most of the elite crowd send their kids to the local Friends schools for about $9,000/year! We have many Catholic schools, too, but the enrollment has been dwindling every year, and I suspect that next year will be worse for them.



I am fortunate that the people in my district support us in every way. Our budget was passed, and local businesses donate supplies for whatever we need. My class is doing a play next month, and the local merchants couldn't be more generous. I believe they are so generous b/c we are so dedicated to showing our gratitude. The kids write letters, draw pictures, thank store managers in person, etc... and we follow up with pictures of the events they supported, which they proudly display.



I really do love my job - at least today I do!



Namaste

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Post by SMuri »

I guess there is no definate answer to the above comments. My battle is the expectations I have with my students! are I want my students to be as excited as I was, just to BE there. But most of them are not.



Education is certainly a tricky business and being a role model is important, I just really thought about that yesterday. Along with that is my excited presentations about unusual topics...perhaps?



Where we are going in education depends partly on what part of the U.S. you are living in. Here in the south, as a northern raised Vermonter I find some old fashioned attitudes and a resentment which seems so backward. Current politics has little meaning to these students, even though it's the capital of AR...what can you do but slowly incorporate the importance of myths and hopefully, some will listen.



Let's face it, the creative aspects of ourselves are sliced off in high school or shortly thereafter. We live in a society that constantly bombards us with materialism.

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Hi Smuri,



Wow. From maverick Yankee Vt. to the deep, deep south. How was the culture shock?



You said:

“Let's face it, the creative aspects of ourselves are sliced off in high school or shortly thereafter. We live in a society that constantly bombards us with materialism.”



I’d like to change that to “…sliced off during our high school years…” Doesn’t necessarily have to be a result of the educational experience… Tragic if it is! But the comment about materialism is certainly true. Education used to be insulated from the ‘outside’ social world. Knowledge was treated as sacred-like… something you were dedicating a part of your life to. No external distractions were tolerated. Now, as I stated above, schools look like malls and administration has difficulty enforcing dress codes.



Springtime in the middle school is a wonderful study in socio-biology. It’s fascinating. As soon as spring pops playful aggression among the boys, especially in the 8th grade, increases markedly. As the weather gets warmer the clothing gets tighter and more revealing. The alpha males and females are on display in a seasonal dance that our hunter – gatherer ancestors probably rolled their eyes at. The cat fighting goes up a notch and the boys on the bottom of the pecking order occasionally duke it out for the privilege of being second from the bottom. Half of the boys have shorted out their cerebral cortexes over one or more of the girls. The teacher’s forge ahead with a smile, knowing that this is just the absolute perfect time for statewide federally mandated standardized tests!



Now I spent grades 1 through 10 in parochial school in the sixties. The uniforms the girls wore gave absolutely no clue as to what may have been hidden underneath. And in high school they separated the sexes altogether. Now I understand…



Clemsy with a little levity



PS: I transferred to public school in the 11th grade in 1972. Girls…Halter tops w/o bras. The decompression almost killed me.


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Post by sandbcabin »

The entrant of this forum wrote:

"What would a social system based on quantum theory look like?"

"The evolution of education can be viewed in a similar manner."

"Question: Where are we going? Are current political ‘fixes’ appropriate or reactionary? How can Campbell’s concept of creative mythology be used in education?"

Response to all the responses....

What happened to these fabulous questions?
The responses seemed to dwindle back into Newtonian consciousness (although they were understandable and real responses).

Where is the thinking that ponders what a social and therefore, educational system that is beyond our currently created newtonian based systems?

I believe the answers are highly complex. Perhaps, educators can imagine characteristics and images that answer this question. We can begin to all visualize this image at it metamorphizes online?

Curious in california...

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Sandcabin,

I have a vision for education which generally reflects my own individualist philosophy. However, fairly recent research offers validity to such a vision. As an ideal, a child’s education should bolster individual weaknesses and nurture individual strengths. This isn’t new. We know how to do this. The past few years have seen a lot of mention of Gardner’s multiple intelligences and the defining and assessing of learning styles. Great stuff. However, we are hearing less and less of this as the application of these ideas is just not feasible in a conventional learning environment… especially an environment that is stressing standardization.

The bottom line is, of course, the bottom line. True educational reform can only take place by slashing class sizes, hiring creative, talented educators, paying them what they deserve and building new and diversified learning environments. Unfortunately, no one is willing to foot the bill even though the cost of not doing so may, in the long run, be astronomical in comparison.

Aside from this, new models of delivery need to be considered. For instance: Why 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, etc.? This is an assembly line! Instead, why can’t movement through the system depend on individual achievement within one’s own educational plan based on an individual profile?

Is this enough to get the ball rolling? You don’t have to be a teacher to post!

Clemsy

PS: I have absolutely no idea what a social system based on quantum theory would look like.

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Post by ALOberhoulser »


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Post by The_Lotus »


In regards to the education system of this country, or any country for that matter, the age-old saying holds true...."When the Student is ready, the Teacher will appear"... The word "system" is the problem here. Smart people educate themselves. This is how it is, and always will be. Smart people will seek out knowledge; therefore, there will always be Gnostics. I personally think this is something to celebrate... As Tigore said "Every child that is born is a sign that God has not given up on Human beings"


I do not like to rely on metaphors alone, as you can meta-phor yourself out of anything, but I have conviction that an individual has to be drawn to "The Truth" in order to find it.. How did I get here, to this board? Why am I attracted to Joseph's Campbell's thoughts and ideas? For the same reason you all are. Our teachers are appearing, and we are realizing that not only were they there in the beginning, but they were screaming in our deaf ears for years. Now, it is time to listen... Be ready for the teachers, especially now. The old myths are just that..old. Some Truth doesn't die, but we live in a different time; therefore, we need different myths..

What happens to a society that has grown up with out "Mythology"? Well, look around. Marketing, Capitalism, Nobel Prize Peace Winners, Mother Theresa's, Jackass, MTV, my Macintosh, the WWW, McDonalds, Wars, TV drugging of societies, Oprah Winfrey, Deepak Chopra, Joseph Campbell, my garden at twilight, the neighbor that I do not really like. My soulmate. Communications.

There will always be they who seek knowlege. There will always be they who do not. Why worry or struggle over an education system that is obviously failing? Are we not creative enough to change it? Are we not ready for that teacher to appear? Are we that deaf? I suppose some of us are. I am 26 years old. I consider myself self-educated, for the most part. I do not have an answer to this riddle, but I do know one thing for sure. My mother is a Kingergarden teacher, and she is a real teacher. The archytype manifest, a divine woman, always giving away her knowledge, with the energy of Love, to little rugrats!

There are those who are ready for their teachers. These people are coming together now... Its a beautiful thing my friends. This board is a perfect example.

When I think of a society based on quantum physics, I tend to think of the first Star Trek I saw as a kid... Lets face it folks, one out of every 8 people in the world is a Chinese farmer.... We have a long way to go....

But what an interesting ride it will be! I for one, am taking notes :smile:




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Post by Clemsy »


Welcome Lotus! I read your post with interest. I would like to focus, for the moment, on one comment:
Why worry or struggle over an education system that is obviously failing? Are we not creative enough to change it?
Don’t you think your mother is an excellent example of where the system is succeeding? I don’t believe that education in this country is failing. This is a media driven belief fed to us by politicians who, in their cynicism, reduce education to campaign slogans. We are given these horrible numbers representing nation wide averages with no demographic breakdowns to tell us what the numbers mean, i.e. who is failing compared to who is succeeding. (Mythic statistics?) Does anyone know that District 26 in NYC is an excellent school district? Not many. When you mention NYC schools the images that instantly come to mind are broken down, overcrowded schools in underclass neighborhoods. There is superb instruction and learning going on in this country (not that even this can’t be improved, mind you). The important question is why aren’t people supposed to know this?

A study was commissioned under the Reagan administration to study education in this country. The results of this study concluded that the U.S. produces more scientists, engineers, doctors, mathematicians and (far too many) lawyers than any other country on the planet. The study was shelved. Not the answer needed.

Here is a quote from a paper I wrote 5 years ago that focused on the need for vocational training options for students:
According to the organization CURE-NY (http://www1.mhv.net/~cureny/educatn.htm) an “estimated 50 percent of all state inmates are unable to read. Two-thirds of prisoners nationwide have not completed high school. More than half of all prison inmates had a reported income of less than $10,000 prior to their arrest.” I am curious as to how many prison inmates were special education students with emotional handicaps or learning disabilities while in school. The students in the last group mentioned above represent not only lives wasted, but an astronomical amount in tax dollars spent. I am truly amazed by the hypocritical mindset nurtured by politicians and vocalized by local tax PAC groups which decries the amount of money spent on education while being more than willing to spend so much more building new prisons and filling them up.

Not all students are destined for the university. Not all “good jobs” require a college diploma. A 1994 State of Texas report (Tracy and Johnson, Windham School System), cited at the above web site, “found that the recidivism rate for those who received both a GED certificate and completed a vocational trade was over 20% lower than those who did not reach either milestone.” How might we lower the prison population, not to mention improve other social problems, by giving students an early opportunity to nurture strengths and talents addressed by neither the previous standards nor the new improved ones?

I consider a lot of what is said about education to be small ‘m’ myth. If American education was that bad then how did many of us get here? Current education ‘reform’ is headed in the wrong direction in a big way. Instead of honoring individual differences and educating each child, we are retooling the assembly line so the country can ‘compete in the global marketplace’… as if we’re not doing that already.

Question: What are the mythic factors driving this situation? What kind of mythic reorientation do we need to truly direct our children onto the Hero’s Path?

Clemsy, gearing up for another school year


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: clemsy on 2002-08-21 14:38 ]</font>

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Post by The_Lotus »


Dear Clemsey,

Thank you for your informative post :smile: I read today via the associated press (for what it is worth) that 32 of out 100 people are either incarserated or under some type of parole or gov't babysitting service.... I was astounded... thats up 23% from 10 years ago.... Are the prison systems that profitable, or are there that many people that are a by-product of the education-system, or lack of? I happen to think that 32% -----
http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34 ... at=prisons ----
....is an outrageous number of people....

I simply do not undestand it...

As to your question... what kind of mythic reorientation do we need? Well, I do not think that the answer lies in the realm of myths as we know it... Sure, it would be easy for me to say "Study the Classics" learn about Prometheus stealing the fire for mankind.... and "Let Zeus do as he pleases"... but that answer sounds like a bunch of hogwash for many of today's listeners... What kind of mythic reorientation? Thats a good question.

Since the dawn of Christendom, I believe that we have been on a downward spiral, as it were... I once read in the Tao te Ching that "Once a Society has to learn by Morals, it is already over with"-- to paraphrase... In other words, we should not have to tell people not to kill other human beings; it should be "built in" or perhaps guided by the mythology of the time... But the problem is, morals have come into play, and taken over the mythic, and the "common sense" of many people.... Sure, without morals, society would be in a worse state than it already is. We take what we can get, I suppose...

I am not an educater by profession, and Bless you for taking such a nobel path.... I do not have the ability right now to talk with many people who are in school or university about these things....

How do you find your students react to these topics? Do you discuss the all important Myths with them? (I have no idea what type of teacher you are :smile:

I would be curious.... My hope is this... As I stated previously, there will ALWAYS be those who SEEK the knowledge... Always.... And there will always be the pole of opposites, whereby someone will oppose this gnostic person.... We still cricify our profits, or lock them up... Not too much has changed since the Inquisition... Although we would like to think of ourselves as "more civilized"... I do not think this is necessarily true...

I hope I am not just ranting and raving... I would love to hear more about what it is you teach, and what kind of impact you think needs to be made in the educational "system" to bring about an awakening of a new mythic resurection.... One that will guide people, should they choose to listen....

As always, blessings to you and yours.

Namaste'

The Lotus.

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