Tolkien and Campbell

Are you looking for a quotation that you can't quite place? Trying to track down a hard-to-find publication? Here, folks can help you find the answers, or discuss ways for you to discover them for yourself.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Yes Nermin.

I think the world in general is very much different now in that regard to much of what you are suggesting.

On a rather interesting note in the news I came across this piece about " The Hobbit " being released for viewing in China:

http://news.yahoo.com/hobbit-receives-f ... 15295.html

( I think it would be fascinating to know what their impression of " Tolkien's " work would be given the differences in cultural background. )
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey all.

Just a quick pop in to drop these two clips off which I think are interesting because of the " Tolkien " footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR-4vMEiQ_U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca5TUYB1nlw

And this " National Geographic " documentry I thought was very well done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyDEKKB6kXI

( It also resurrected some of my suspicions about my " Folly ". :wink: )

Cheers all! :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote: Yes Nermin.

On a rather interesting note in the news I came across this piece about " The Hobbit " being released for viewing in China:

( I think it would be fascinating to know what their impression of " Tolkien's " work would be given the differences in cultural background. )
James,
I'm well aware that there's something fascinating about Tolkien but anytime
I start reading him, I'm getting lost in his strange yet familiar sceneries about
life, death and rivalry and cannot get the message. Can-you please help a little?
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hello Nermin.

You asked:
I'm well aware that there's something fascinating about Tolkien but anytime
I start reading him, I'm getting lost in his strange yet familiar sceneries about
life, death and rivalry and cannot get the message. Can-you please help a little?
First of all let me state that there are associates on these forums that are far more informed about Tolkien and his work than I am. So with that in mind just so you know; I will do the best I can to be of assistance.

I'm going to try to address what to me is my interpretation of ( at least " one " message ) and perhaps there may be other associates who have thoughts on some of the different dimensions concerning "(The ) Message ".

As Tolkien has been considered by many of his 150 million readers; ( a very " out-dated " estimation ); to be one of the world's foremost literary scholars and authors of this last century; and whose impact is quite possibly considered even more relevant and popular now than when he was alive; ( especially considering the movies that have since been done of his work ); I will now humbly suggest several things that I hope might be of some use.

1.) First and foremost to me would be the relationship of Tolkien's work to the " The Hero's Journey " or the " Monomyth " that Joseph Campbell pointed out is the major theme in much of the world's culture that surfaces time and again through the DNA of it's textural fabric.

2.) Tolkien creates an enornous ( cosmology ) where the dynamics of this " great story of adventure " is spread out over a huge " timeline "; and the great qualities of human charactor are evoked from within this framework. And in this literary universe he weaves the illumination of these great qualities; ( both good and bad ); that the human condition must engage with in the never-ending but ever-evolving and timeless story of humanity. And he does this within what I would describe as a " Mythical Landscape ". It is of course full of many charactors, magical creatures, and fantastic landscapes as any other magical adventure contains. There is also the understanding that there are different books with different charactors set within different time periods woven together that make up this series.

3.) And in these charactors such as: Gandalf, Bilbo Baggins, Frodo, Sam and many others; we see that throughout their interplay in the series of books of this great story spread out over time; ( an example ) of what Joseph Campbell refers to as a metaphorical reference to the hero's journey. " And that what this story speaks to ( is ) ": something that can be experienced and translated into modern life which is "; ( roughly translated ); " a life lived in self-discovery, finding within oneself the resources of charactor to meet their destiny ".

4.) Plus; the most important element recently pointed out to me; " He tells a Great Story! " :wink:

5.) Lastly I would suggest as I was advised; to read through the pages of this thread for there is much information here with many helpful links. There is great insight and respect for this work that is shared by those who had a deep understanding of the themes and goes back to some of the earliest days of these forums. It will take some time; but it is well worth it. ( It sure was for me. )

At it's most basic approach; these things to me from my understanding are what seem to come to mind. But I will let anyone else who has thoughts on this take it from here. :idea:

I hope this is helpful.

Namaste
Last edited by JamesN. on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote:Hello Nermin.

And in these charactors such as: Gandalf, Bilbo Baggins, Frodo, Sam and many others; we see that throughout their interplay in the series of books of this great story spread out over time; ( an example ) of what Joseph Campbell refers to as a metaphorical reference to the hero's journey. " And that what this story speaks to ( is ) ": something that can be experienced and translated into modern life which is "; ( roughly translated ); " a life lived in self-discovery, finding within oneself the resources of charactor to meet their destiny ".
James, thank you so much for your encircling reply to my vague question;
most people would simply answer that Tolkien is primarily a novelist -a story-teller
and that not necessarily a particular message should have been hidden between
his lines.
I think what I found bothersome was poet Frodo's emprise with the Ring that I
read as an apologue of temptationn about power and about facing his shadow.
That befuddled me and I asked myself the following; can-we say that power is 'bad'
inherently?
Or, is-that only because some of us don't know how to manage it?
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Indeed Nermin.

This is an important theme that Joseph Campbell addresses in a variety of different ways which is: " The Symbol ". ( And also along with that reference is the understanding in this sense of what a " metaphor " is. )

As is often pointed out; the idea of power in and of itself is extremely intoxicating. For example in the quote: " Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely ".

But the realization of an individual being an agent of administration of that resource is on a different level of consciousness than seeing that position in terms of self-grandisment; therefore not being seduced by it's ( misinterpretation ).

And one of the key functions that art, story, and song serve is in being a vehicle of insight for the awakening of consciousness to this sort of illumination. Plus the added benefit of the gifts of beauty, awe, terror, and empathy that are also evoked through this transferance. And " Myth " especially utilizes this function.

( So what this says to me is ); whether by story, song, epic poem, saga, religion, myth , or otherwiswe; like Tolkien's: " Frodo ", " Sam ", " Bilbo Baggins ", " Gandalf " and " Gollum "; or in other tales, myths, or religions of: " King Arthur & The Search for the Holy Grail ", " Mohammed "; " Jesus "; or " The Buddha " we are indeed ( informed) by their journey of " life's great mystery " and enriched by their gifts of insight into the " acts of the living of life itself " as we ourselves become as Joseph Campbell refers to with the important realization of: " being vehicles of the light bulb that ( carries ) the light; and not identifying with being ( the thing ) in and of itself. " :idea:

Cheers :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote:Indeed Nermin.

As is often pointed out; the idea of power in and of itself is extremely intoxicating. For example in the quote: " Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely ".

:)
James, this sounds so important to me,
namely -humanity's and each individual's linkage to power.
Is-it an inherent tendency or are-we simply 'brain-washed' to
interact with power?

I know that my arguments are not yet clear enough althought
I feel intuitively that I will strongly benefit from such reflections.

Basically, I'm asking the following to myself; can-we evade power (relations)
and still survive? Can-we ever make and live without some sense of power?
Or, is-this an inevitable fate for humankind since we started to think that we
surpassed Animal Kingdom with analytical thinking abilities or tool-making?
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Indeed Nermin, this I think is one of dilemmas of life of human interaction that everyone must encounter and workout. And not being a particular knowlegable fellow in " Jungian Psychology " as Joseph Campbell was I will suggest a couple of quotes that may or may not be of assistance to your concerns here.

The first seems pretty direct:
Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.
Carl Jung, "On the Psychology of the Unconciousness", 1917
But referring to another quote that was shared fairly recently with me by our Jungian specialist and moderator, Cindy; seems to point in my mind to a better resolution:
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
As far as mankind's struggle towards the larger issues of possibly evolving out of this predicament of dealing with the handling and coping with the responsibilties related with " power " I would guess is probably highly unlikely. However; myth seems to offer clues about this. And Campbell, Jung, and Tolkien's work all come at it in different ways. Joseph Campbell with " Comparative Mythology "; Carl Jung with " Analytical Psychology ", and Tolkien with " Mythical Story "



( I might suggest anything further on this might better be served on another more appropiate thread better suited for a topic of this nature. If you are interested here is a link to a very comprehensive discussion on Carl Jung's work: " Jung in the Weeds " ):

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4902

Addendum: One part of the discussion that has been recommended as very useful along with ( Ego and the Arctype ) is this link to ( Myth and Psyche ):

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 6665#56665

( It has been helpful to me and perhaps may serve you as well. )

Namaste :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote:
Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.
Carl Jung, "On the Psychology of the Unconciousness", 1917
James, let-me start with this; life has a political dimension and there seems to be
a political (power-oriented) aspect in most social interaction. All struggle and all
debate is more or less power-oriented. Isn't-it true?
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Nermin since the ( issue ) you raise is not really related to " Tolkien and Campbell "; I took the liberty of starting a separate thread that addresses it on the " Awakening of the Mythological Mind " forum called: " Power and Human Interaction ".

What you suggest is an interesting topic and it deserves it's own thread. I did the best I could in framing what seemed to me to be your line of inquiry. My reply was probably not as comprehensive and accurate as some of our more informed associates in this area. I'm sure they can provide some interesting thoughts on this as well.

Namaste
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Nermin
Associate
Posts: 520
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: London, Britain

Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote: What you suggest is an interesting topic and it deserves it's own thread. I did the best I could in framing what seemed to me to be your line of inquiry. My reply was probably not as comprehensive and accurate as some of our more informed associates in this area. I'm sure they can provide some interesting thoughts on this as well.
Namaste
James,
This kind of civility has power to change people and their whole perception
at once :cry:
Thank you
True friendship is based on trust, honesty and sincere generosity of our hearts

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

So having finished reading The Hobbit, James, what do you think? :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Hey Cindy.

Bilbo Baggins ( is ) the perfect example of " The Hero's Journey! " 8)

Although as you have mentioned several times; certain liberties have been taken in the story context that are noticable. It will be interesting to see what is done from here with the rest of the plot.

One movie installment down; ( two more installements of the project left to go. )


( Also as a side note; after even more research I have come across 3 different documentry references to my earlier ( " Folly " thoughts :wink: ); which I had mentioned confirming that " Tolkien " was indeed trying to reclaim this lost sense of a ( mythic consciousness ). Specifically by creating this " Middle Earth " universe to as a reference to the lost " Anglo-Saxon " myth taken away by the " Norman " conquest. ( Bewolf was one of the only surviving references left. ) Which all of this by way had been influenced by his experiences from the 1st World War. :shock:

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

And pretty cool, huh. 8)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Awesome! 8)

BTW Cindy I stumbled across this comparision of composer ( " Richard Wagner's Ring " and " Tolkien's Ring " ) during my wanderings and thought you might find it interesting. It's way out of my depth as far as knowlegable background but something fascinating to consider. ( I especially liked Tolkien's response. :lol: )
Wagner's Ring and Tolkien's Ring

J. R. R. Tolkien's fantasy novel The Lord of the Rings (1937-1949) shares elements with Der Ring des Nibelungen; however, Tolkien himself denied that he had been inspired by Wagner's work, saying that "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance ceases."[18] Some similarities arise because Tolkien and Wagner both drew upon the same source material for inspiration, including the Völsungasaga and the Poetic Edda. However, several researchers have suggested that Tolkien was also indebted to Wagner for some of the latter's original concepts, such as the ring giving its owner mastery of the world and the ring's inherently evil nature and corrupting influence upon the minds and wills of its possessors.[19][20]
Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen

Also here is a link to a PBS introduction page about the performance of his Opera:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/episodes/ ... pera/1312/

Like I said; ( a little out of my element here ); but just another example of what makes it such special and unique material none-the-less. :wink:

( However; if you would prefer an " extra special treat "; here is a piece voted one of the 50 greatest cartoons ever done in a " most unusual " condensed cartoon performance of " Wagner's " work. Leave it to " Elmer Fudd " and " Bugs Bunny " to put things in their proper perspective. :P ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQa-r5DiGZk

Cheers :lol:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Locked