Tolkien and Campbell

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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

One last grumbling, then I really shall stop...hopefully, huh. :P

Note to Peter Jackson: Smaug was called Smaug the Golden for a reason--his color was red-gold.

I feel better now. :lol:
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey everyone.

If I might I would like to suggest an observation that I found particularly interesting as I have now had a chance to spend a little time with this. Aside from the fact of the huge array of metaphorical references that were utilized borrowing from what seemed; ( at least to me ); countless other timeless and critical literary themes that are representative of many of the noble qualities promoted in myth, legend, and literature; there remains the question: " Is there something implied in it's message that has relevance to the modern world other than this " Epic Tale or Saga " ? ( And as an additional suggestive question: " Is there a thematic connection with what Joseph Campbell's work has to do with it? " )

There are several things I found that would imply most definitely yes. One would be the ( horrendous impact ) of the 1st World War that forever changed the global consciousness at that time. Not only did it signal the end of the 19th Century and the " Old World Order " of Europe's political system; but the world's psychology changed at that moment; not only in " Europe " but for that matter " The West " in general was never the same.

There are two particular influences to me that support this understanding. 1.) Tolkien served in the war; and 2.) Campbell's time in " Paris ".

The decimation that Tolkien saw at the " Battle Of Somme " in which some 58,000 British troops were killed and the inhuman conditions of trench warfare of that period affected not only him but a whole generation of other artists and writers as well. The " Lost Generation " writers that were in residence in Paris before, during, and after this time were part of this consciousness that Joe lived and was affected by while he lived there. This moment in time was part of an artistic movement changed the face of Art and the ( consciousness that created it ) across the board; leading into the transition of what we now call " Modern Art ". It was the absolute " epienter " of this sea-change that was taking place; and ( Ernest Hemingway, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Pablo Picasso ) were just some of this group of the post- war generation that included painting, writing, music, dance, and theater, philosophy, and psychology whose work and influence was in transition while Joe was living there. ( Don't forget that Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, Thomas Mann, T. S. Eliot and other influences on Campbell were also active at this time; and although not in Paris were also making their voices heard and he mentions in great detail how so much of this exposure to all of thesenew ideas changed his thinking. ) He recognized immediately some of the same mythological themes he had already encountered in other areas such as American Indian folklore and he began to explore these connections. Shakespeare and Co. where he was influenced by the work of James Joyce along with his exposure to the Cafe' and Art exibition environments influence completely changed his trajectory from interest in " Germanic Studies " to interest in themes like the " Arthurian Romances " and on from there into the " Mythic " realm like his first love of the " American Indian ". ( A bit clumsy in the description and perhaps overstretching in my assumptions here; but the biographical DVD " The Hero's Journey " documents it. )

Second I think there was this loss of innocence and the disappearence of a kind " mythical " landscape and sensibilty; and it's cultural root connections that informed western society for centuries was being replaced by this whole new " modernistic ", industrial, psychological alchemy of mindset. And although the great stories and myth's were still there they did not transfer the same messages in the same way they once did. I think Tolkien felt this in a kind of subliminal way and instinctually reached deeply into the culture's mythical language and background to create this new mythical universe.

Now I say this from the impressions that I have drawn so far and it is of course subjective from my point of view. But it seems from Tolken's literary influences and along with such friends as C. S. Lewis and others; the environment along with his personal experience's from the little bit of interview footage I have seen that in creating a story while reading to his children and the ( papergrading ) catalyst-incident Cindy shared; ( which was also included in the interview ); he felt this deep drive to connect with this very old disappearing mythical landscape as well as his desire to be a writer; and his " Muse " lead him from there. And it seems to me also; there is no doubt that Joe; who mentions on several occasions; not only do these great stories connect but they inform in the deepest possible way. He spent a lifetime showing their interconnections culturally as well as psychologically, spiritually, and emotionally.

Perhaps this may sound a little far-fetched, disjointed, and nebulous in my interpretations. And I realize there may be things of which I am unaware; but this is at least some of the impressions I have so far.( Take them with a grain of salt if you will. ) :wink: What a huge topic in scope and range; and what grand thread that covers it! 8)

Cheers
Last edited by JamesN. on Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clemsy »

James I wish I had the time to dive into a lot of this with you! I'm familiar with a lot of the story, but it's still fun watching the interviews with his son, various scholars and those associated with the movies. I especially like that the Silmarillion became such a mythic center of gravity in Tolkien's psyche that it pulled The Hobbit into it. lol!

I'd never considered before that what Tolkien had done was stimulate his psychic urge toward myth in an amazing and profound manner.

Jung would have been well pleased, methinks.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Clemsy;

I must emphasize that much of my thought process here is " speculative " at best concerning " Tolkien's creative drive. " And as I mentioned before I am well aware of the fact that I am in " very informed " company. None the less I still think there was this deep inner drive; subliminal though it probably was; to ( reclaim ) at least to some degree; part of this ( landscape ) of the " Mythic Realm " that was disappearing, receding, and vanishing from view.

I am absolutely convinced however; of the effect that this " gathering of eagles " as it were; of the concentrated intellectual transformation that was taking place in " Paris " at that time was ( also ) reacting to not only the disorientation and " sense of loss " of this moral, spiritual, and mythical compass brought on by this total devastation of the war; but also that there was an awareness of something even more profound taking place that had to do with " consciousness ". And that was what part of the message their art was trying to deliever; ( this sense of seeing something invisible; but something you knew was still there. Not making the invisible, visible necessarily; but knowable in a " sense ". " You couldn't see it, but knew it was there. ) ( These artists understood what each other was trying to do and there was a sense of community that supported it. ) Now granted this was probably more the case in painting; but still whether in Igor Stravinsky's " Rite of Spring "; Claude Dedussy's " Afternoon of a Fawn "; " The Great Gatsby " by F. Scott Fitzgerald; Hemingway's " The Sun Also Rises " or " For Whom the Bell Tolls "; all the way linked from Impressionist Henry Matisse to the Cubism of Pablo Picasso's " Les Demoiselles d' Avignon " to his later " Guernica " there is this connection of artistic interpretation that is the breaking away of the " Old World's view " that is evolving toward a " new way of seeing "; and that's what I'm getting at. And whether you are talking about Gertrude Stein's: ( Salon get togethers ); Sylvia Beach at " Shakespeare & Co. "; Impressionism , Cubism, DA DA, or any of the other movements that transpired from this period; to the poetry of Guillaume Apollinaire to painting to music to the Ballet Russes and the theater and so on and so on; this new change of intellectual insight is still having echo's that are being felt today.

I won't go on but only to mention that with this sense of loss there was also this metamorphsis that was taking place in Paris as the art world conciousness evolved, shifted, or changed if you will. ( Joe was right in the middle of it ) and was profoundly affected by it. So much so that by the time he returned to America shortly before " The Depression " he tried to change his Academic Studies. When he was refused he left school; wandered for awhile before secluding to " Woodstock " to read for 5 years; then accepted his offer to teach at " Sarah Lawrence Collage ".

Part of what I would call this ( disconnect ) would be defined as a kind of: " loss of the connection, access, or " Bond to the Mythic Realm " as it were; some of which went back " Millenium. " For examples of this think: King Arthur and Avalon, Charlemagne, The " Fatherland " of the Third Reich, The Holy Roman Empire of the Catholic Church, Homer's Illiad & Odessy and Virgil's Aneid, Valhalla, Mount Olympus; and that's just a tiny fraction of western civilization material; ( much less any of the other civilizations ). Tolkien and Campbell both understood not only what was contained within that ( depth and meaning of that Realm ); but ( what it's " true " purpose served by the consciousness and identity as a vehicle it helped to imprint and inspire. ).

As to whether Joe or Tolkien knew each other is not as important as this connction to the " Mythic Realm ". They both understood this ( sense ) of this " Mythic Realm " and went at it in different ways. Tolkien by creating this imaginary world in his work; and Joe by teaching the understanding of what Myth was, what it's cross-cultural connections were; and what it's purpose and function served. ( IMHO of course. :wink: )

And like I said ; this is just my impression given what I know. Other folks here may have their own interpretations to share.

Cheers :)

Addendum: I am adding a link to a PBS documentry done on the " Paris " years that some folks on these forums already may be familiar with:

http://www.pbs.org/programs/paris/

Also ( Malcolm Cowley ); and his work: " Exiles Return " and " A Second Flowering: The Days and Works of the Lost Generation Writers " chronicle much of this period. ( Cowley was there! )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Cowley
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Cool...

I just ordered a copy of The Hobbit (1966 edition) for a dear friend, and this was included in a book review by Bernie in TX: "...A good book to read first would be 'The Power of Myth' by Joseph Campbell. Then you get a clearer picture of why the story progresses as it does..." He included a direct link to Campbell's book on Amazon as well.

8)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Amazing! :idea:

How interesting Cindy! I wonder if there are others out there who have a similar feeling about this? 8)

By the way I came across this work and wondered if you knew about it :?:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Letters-J-R-R ... f_dp_p_t_1

This was mentioned earlier in the thread and I figured you were already aware of it: :wink:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Individuated- ... dp_p_img_2

Also this came up on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Shadows-Lie ... ted+hobbit
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Post by Clemsy »

I wonder if there are others out there who have a similar feeling about this?
Sure, James. The story follows the steps of the hero journey rather nicely. It's taught through this lens in many schools, I'm sure. :-)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by JamesN. »

Thanks Clemsy and Cindy;

Indeed, and I must confess in my rather exuburant excitement and somewhat feeble attempts at early assimilation I'm sure some of my self-absorbed lack of background is embarrassingly evident. :oops: :roll:

However; as I continue on in my efforts; ( and I hope with the kind patience of my good friends here :wink: ); I will make my way onward in groping for confirmation of these interesting suspicions for ( even some of the questions are still evolving ).

One thing I found I liked alot in going back over the thread more slowly was this that seemed rather promising:

http://greenbooks.theonering.net/anwyn/ ... 00102.html

Also as a concept I would like to add this definition of " Christendom " to the idea of " Mythic Realm " .

From wikipedia:
Christendom,[1] or the Christian world,[2] has several meanings. In a cultural sense it refers to the worldwide community of Christians, adherents of Christianity. In a historical or geopolitical sense the term usually refers collectively to Christian majority countries or countries in which Christianity dominates[1] or nations in which Christianity is the established religion. Its original meaning, in yet a more restrictive sense, refers to the sum total of nations in which Catholic Christianity is the established religion of the state. “Christendom is originally a medieval concept steadily to have evolved since the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the gradual rise of the Papacy more in religio-temporal implication practically during and after the reign of Charlemagne; and the concept let itself to be lulled in the minds of the staunch believers to the archetype of a holy religious space inhabited by Christians, blessed by God, the Heavenly Father, ruled by Christ through the Church and protected by the Spirit-body of Christ; no wonder, this concept, as included the whole of Europe and then the expanding Christian territories on earth, strengthened the roots of Romance of the greatness of Christianity in the world.”[3]
In relationship to the Great Epics, Stories, Myths, and Legends both Pagan as well as Christian mentioned in this discussion and when contemplating this " Domain or Realm "; ( especially the Euorpean ); I think it is very important to include this understanding as far as it's influence on much of the connection to this larger body of interactive thought; ( much less a comprehensive overview ).

And again referring to my original premise; the receding influence of this connection caused in part by the after-affects of the 1st World War; ( and of course to be followed shortly by the rise of the " Nazi Regime " and the equally brutal 2nd World War ); and the encroaching absorbtion of ( Industrial - Consumer driven - materialism ) on modern life. ( In my opinion ); this began to erode the power of this ( Mythical ) influence to the point of it's regulation to a much more dimmished capacity. And it was this sense of it's loss and the disappearence not only of this invisible; but very real and powerful landscape; but the position it held and the function it served that called; ( if you will ); to this inner drive to seek it's reclaimation in a sense. ( Still my conjecture here; as much a " Folly " as it may prove out to be. :lol: )

Cheers :)

( Sorry Cindy; I missed your post while fixing an edit. )
Last edited by JamesN. on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

JamesN. wrote: By the way I came across this work and wondered if you knew about it :?:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Letters-J-R-R ... f_dp_p_t_1

This was mentioned earlier in the thread and I figured you were already aware of it: :wink:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Individuated- ... dp_p_img_2

Also this came up on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Where-Shadows-Lie ... 812&sr=8-2&
keywords=the+individuated+hobbit
Yes, James, I'm aware of Tolkien's letters, and while I don't own this book, I do have a site bookmarked that has them published online. Ahem... :wink:

As for the two books offering Jungian interpretations, I'm aware of these, too, but never read them because in this case, I have a pretty good idea what's up along this line. :P


:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

Tolkien and Eros...


Here check out the grave marker for him and his wife: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cg ... &GRid=1456

From The Tale of Beren and Lúthien: "...The Tale of Beren and Lúthien was regarded as the central part of his legendarium (C: Silmarillion legendarium) by Tolkien. The story and the characters reflect the love of Tolkien and his wife, Edith. Particularly, the event when Edith danced for him in a glade with flowering hemlocks seems to have inspired his vision of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien..." Also, Lúthien Tinúviel.


Lúthien Dancing
Image
By Ted Nasmith


This tale is mirrored, of course, in the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen.


:)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JamesN. »

Yes Cindy; when this weekend I ran across this remarkable story I too was struck by it's deeply poignant resonance reflected as a " mirror to life " in the power of it's example lived out not only in story but in real life. ( Can't do better than that. )

I'm looking forward to spending alot more time with his work.

Wow: First Campbell, then Jung, now Tolkien; ( I won't ask what's next; I got all I can handle for the moment with a full plate. Pretty hard to top; I'm good for now ). :wink:

Thanks for all your help with this. You too Clemsy.

Cheers :)
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Folks.

As I have spent more time and research with this material I have come to the realization that although as interesting some of the suspicions were which seemed logical to me at the time; what I may have pursuing it seems were probably not the case. And although being under the spell of my own " Folly " I must humbly accept the results from my own quotes: :oops: :roll:
Indeed, and I must confess in my rather exuburant excitement and somewhat feeble attempts at early assimilation I'm sure some of my self-absorbed lack of background is embarrassingly evident.

However; as I continue on in my efforts; ( and I hope with the kind patience of my good friends here ); I will make my way onward in groping for confirmation of these interesting suspicions for ( even some of the questions are still evolving ).

( And )

( Still my conjecture here; as much a " Folly " as it may prove out to be. )
From Wikipedia I found in a section on " The Simarillion ":

Development of the text

Tolkien first began working on the stories that would become The Silmarillion in 1914,[8] intending them to become an English mythology that would explain the origins of English history and culture.[9] Much of this early work was written while Tolkien, then a British officer returned from France during World War I, was in hospital and on sick leave.[10] He completed the first story, "The Fall of Gondolin", in late 1916.[11]

He called his collection of nascent stories The Book of Lost Tales.[5] This became the name for the first two volumes of The History of Middle-earth, which include these early texts. The stories employ the narrative device of a mariner named Eriol (in later versions, an Anglo-Saxon named Ælfwine) who finds the island of Tol Eressëa, where the Elves live; and the Elves tell him their history.[12] However, Tolkien never completed The Book of Lost Tales; he left it to compose the poems "The Lay of Leithian" and "The Lay of the Children of Húrin".[5]

The first complete version of The Silmarillion was the "Sketch of the Mythology" written in 1926[13] (later published in Volume IV of The History of Middle-earth). The "Sketch" was a 28-page synopsis written to explain the background of the story of Túrin to R. W. Reynolds, a friend to whom Tolkien had sent several of the stories.[13] From the "Sketch" Tolkien developed a fuller narrative version of The Silmarillion called Quenta Noldorinwa[14] (also included in Volume IV). The Quenta Noldorinwa was the last version of The Silmarillion that Tolkien completed.[14]

In 1937, encouraged by the success of The Hobbit, Tolkien submitted to his publisher George Allen & Unwin an incomplete but more fully developed version of The Silmarillion called Quenta Silmarillion,[5] but they rejected the work as being obscure and "too Celtic".[15] The publisher instead asked Tolkien to write a sequel to The Hobbit.[15] Tolkien began to revise The Silmarillion, but soon turned to the sequel, which became The Lord of the Rings.[16] He renewed work on The Silmarillion after completing The Lord of the Rings,[17] and he greatly desired to publish the two works together.[18] But when it became clear that would not be possible, Tolkien turned his full attention to preparing The Lord of the Rings for publication.[19]

In the late 1950s Tolkien returned to The Silmarillion, but much of his writing from this time was concerned more with the theological and philosophical underpinnings of the work than with the narratives themselves. By this time, he had doubts about fundamental aspects of the work that went back to the earliest versions of the stories, and it seems that he felt the need to resolve these problems before he could produce the "final" version of The Silmarillion.[17] During this time he wrote extensively on such topics as the nature of evil in Arda, the origin of Orcs, the customs of the Elves, the nature and means of Elvish rebirth, and the "flat" world and the story of the Sun and Moon.[17] In any event, with one or two exceptions, he wrought little change to the narratives during the remaining years of his life.[17]
My apologies to my fellow associates for what may have seemed like a sojourn to fantasy; ( although I can't help thinking there was some sort of connection to my earlier thoughts ); I will now resume a more reasonable path of pursuit of just enjoying the work and hopefully aquiring the wisdom that it offers. ( However my feelings about the " Paris Art Movement " have not changed at all. ) :wink:

Cheers :)
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

James, I envy you the time for this pursuit! I hope you enjoyed it and that's all that matters. I mean, what author has poured as much of his soul into a narrative as Tolkien did? It's breadth and depth seem to be the work of many lifetimes, and the man was a dedicated and renowned scholar of English and Anglo-Saxon literature and languages.

How did he do it?!

Someone as mythically inspired as he must arouse interest, which you have pursued.

Well done!
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by JamesN. »

Clemsy.

You are much too generous.

I wish I could assume any amount of credible background of scholarship towards a " Grand Illumination " on my part. Pretty steep hill to climb as you mention; and I certainly assume no authority of knowledge in that area. And in discovering my " Folly " a much more valuable gift replaced it. And it was I state humbly and more importantly: " just the learning and sharing of insights of these great minds like Tolkien and Joseph Campbell with the fine company I am in ". ( And just as valuable ); the pursuit's of a life's journey and the seeking of it's individual meaning that we all are on. :D

( Incidently I wish I had the time too; " for it was only in bits and pieces "; but then I am grateful for the help I had from such good friends here as well. :wink: )

Thank you for your kind thoughts;
Cheers 8)
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Nermin »

JamesN. wrote: There are two particular influences to me that support this understanding. 1.) Tolkien served in the war; and 2.) Campbell's time in " Paris "
Butting in with your permission; Joseph Campbell was indeed at the right place
on the right time -in Berlin and Paris when people -the survivants- were starting over
and when Europe didn't yet decide to sell all the war and atrocities abroad :!:

By the way, I think today's Paris is no more an equally attarctive city.
People, architecture and everything looks different. Thanks :)
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