Hera/hero etymological link; proto-Hera/Hermes

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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

No, Myrtle, it wasn't Ningishzida either. What was significant about the "proto-Hermes" that I have in mind was its androgyny/bisexuality as an indication of its maleness having derived from the female mother earth and both represented as serpents. The statuette I saw had no human features and no indication of wings or feathers that would eventually come to be associated with male dieties as sky gods. This Hermes was freakin' ancient.

This origin is what we're looking for: Pelasgians. Sound familiar? :P


I still can't believe that I wouldn't have saved that image, but maybe I didn't for some reason. When I switched to my new computer, though, I--well, my daughter for me--also saved my images on a flash drive just to be safe, so I'm hoping that it's there since I can't find it on my current computer. Yet I'm not particularly computer savvy and don't understand such gadgetry well, and so far it's driving me nuts that the flash drive doesn't simply present me with the images pure and simple so I can check everything without a hassle. Am I doing something wrong, perhaps? Might you know? I'm hoping that I thought to label the image with an indication of its origin.

Cindy


P.S. Just highlighting the different attitude in play here, too, for any interested when it comes to gods and goddesses as either originating from the earth or from the heavens. Myrtle's most recent information on Hera as a feminine expression of "the air, the sky" also speaks to this, for example. Obviously such things eventually come down to a both/and.
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Andreas,

Just wanted to mention again how cool and helpful it's been to have a Greek speaker involved in this. In addition to all the past information and associations that we've discussed so far, did you notice that Myrtle provided us with yet another interesting etymology link?
According to Herodotus, Hera was taken over by the Greeks from the Pelasgians, the indigenous people in northern Greece. Her name e-ra, as it appears in the Linear B tablet, is not of Indo-European origin…
I've learned, too, that this might have been place name, though, in Knossos.


At any rate, it's certainly all Greek to me. :P


Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

Myrtle,

Have you ever heard this one before? Not me. And I'm back to the Hera/hero/Herakles link:

From http://www.orderwhitemoon.org/goddess/Hera/

"...Centuries before the appearance of Zeus, Hera was alone on the throne with her young lover Herakles behind her in the place that Zeus would eventually occupy in her sanctuaries. Though portrayed as her arch enemy in classical Greek myth, Herakles or Heracles, whose name actually means "glory of Hera" was in reality Hera's sexual partner and co creator. I personally believe that given Hera's common elements with Middle Eastern goddesses, Herakles was probably her son also, a dying son/consort that is seen in myth world wide, but that is just [my opinion, however. Be sure,] in the beginning, Hera was no god's wife..."

I wonder where this lady got her information re: "the lovers" and how accurate it may be. Often times, it seems to me, the resurgence of goddess worship among contemporary women who sometimes tend to romanticize such things can go too far.

I'm adding this to my list to check out, too, eventually. It never ends. Ha!

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

One more thing about the "proto-Hermes," Myrtle, then I'm giving up thinking for today. :lol:

Marija Gimbutas in The Language of the Goddess has a section entitled Hermes, snake, phallus, and Asklepios, the Savior-Healer, and talks about "pre-Indo-European, pre-Greek...likely descendent of Old European phallic figues." This is clearly related to what I've been going on about in ancient Mediterranean regions, but the snake gods she mentions were portrayed with some sort of human feature, too, e.g., head, while the proto-Hermes I have in mind was not, plus they (Gimbutas's) were stand alone gods, so to speak, in relation to the mother goddess. Just saying so you can better understand where I've been coming from.

Later!

Cindy


P.S. The excursion on the Jung board I mentioned that eventually led me to this Hermes--we were looking at the association between Asklepios as Savior-Healer and Jesus Christ. 8)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

My brain hurts. I intended to quit for the day over 4 hours ago. Please, someone, make me stop!


Well, then, more about the continuing link of Hermes to the Ladies into the Bronze Age. :P


From: http://www.utexas.edu/research/pasp/pub ... hermes.pdf

And why does it not surprise me that during Preview the excerpt was perfectly readable but on the board is not? :!: Increase zoom level to at least 150%.

Image

"Brief account?" This is the freakin' last paragraph, and did I bother to check the end of such a paper before I went through the whole thing? :roll:


I, anyway, am certainly satisfied that Hermes cannot be separated from the Goddess, and at this point all I want is to see is that statuette...


So you know, folks, what my moaning is about is that I very much needed to rest today, and all the mental work I've done since 5:00 a.m. was not a good idea. I knew better, of course, and kept at, as well as with other readings online even when I started to feel unwell, and now I'm quite :evil: with myself. Anyway...


Do have a nice day! :D


P.S. Basta! This time, of course, when I resubmitted, it was perfectly fine on the board. Hermes always was a trickster, huh. Who knows what size you may end up with. Sorry.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Andreas »

Hey,

Too much info.. but thanks.

I will need some time to read all the posts here and since I returned yesterday my IQ dropped considerably. :P
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Cindy B. »

Andreas,

I don't expect you to keep reading through everything in this thread. :wink: I just wanted to point out that particular thing since you played an important part in teaching us about the language. 8) At this point I would guess that Myrtle and I are likely the only two who really give two hoots about the etymology issues--word wonks :lol: --or the deep digging that can go on when one indulges that obsessive streak that can take over when it comes to exploring archetypal roots. I don't typically take things this far either, but at times some intellectual question bugs me until I can satisfy myself with an answer of some sort, and obviously a potential problem is that one thing can lead to another and to another and... :P

Have a super Sunday!

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Myrtle »

Cindy B. wrote:I still can't believe that I wouldn't have saved that image, but maybe I didn't for some reason. When I switched to my new computer, though, I--well, my daughter for me--also saved my images on a flash drive just to be safe, so I'm hoping that it's there since I can't find it on my current computer. Yet I'm not particularly computer savvy and don't understand such gadgetry well, and so far it's driving me nuts that the flash drive doesn't simply present me with the images pure and simple so I can check everything without a hassle. Am I doing something wrong, perhaps? Might you know? I'm hoping that I thought to label the image with an indication of its origin.
Maybe you could try searching by its file type. For example: if you think it was a .jpg file or .gif, etc. enter that into "Find." You could also sort by date.

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Post by Myrtle »

There's an interesting article about Hermes in the American Journal of Archaeology. The article starts on pg. 175.

For link, search books.google.com with keywords
"American Journal of Archaeology" and "Origin of Hermes"


The reason I mentioned Ningishzida is that there are images that only portray the snake and not the creatures on the sides.


Just to clarify, does the snake image you are looking for have one or two heads? And does it coil vertically or horizontally?

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Post by Cindy B. »

Yes, Myrtle, I immediately recognized why you thought of Ningishzida, but you couldn't have known, of course, that human featues weren't part of the mix since I hadn't mentioned it.

And I will read the article, thank you. 8) But not today! I'm not researching anything today, my day of rest. If it's good enough for sun gods, then... :P

Except for checking images online while I listen to the news or whatever. That's busy work requiring little energy. Google and Yahoo search engines have coughed up nothing so far, but heck, there are still zillions of search words and 200+ search engines to go. Ha! If only I lived in a city right now with a decent university library. Better yet, if only I'd saved that blasted image. :P I'm not dealing with that one either today, but thanks, too, for the suggestions re: the flash drive.

And the statuette was of a single-headed and nonhooded snake that was coiled left to right (not highly conic) and with head just beginning to rise from the rear right side. Does that make sense? The solid black color I'm sure about, but whether it was of stone or of petrified wood I couldn't say, just that it was dark black. And while I'm using the word "statuette," maybe "figure" would be better. Know what I mean? I don't want to imply a refinement that wasn't there, and another word just hasn't come to me for now.

Those two-headed snake images minus human features are pretty cool, too, I think, and to my way of thinking better capture the duality inherent to the most ancient Hermes. 8)

Thank you so much, Myrtle!

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Myrtle »

Maybe Glykon/Glycon?
Scroll to statuette image on lower right
http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

If not, is it similar to this?
Last edited by Myrtle on Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Neoplato »

And let's not forget about "Abraxas" who is another snake-like sun-god.

Supposedly the magic word "abracadabra" is a take on his name.
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

Did the Toltec experience this same dilemma? Great Goddess of Teotihuacan

...and then there is the Spider Grandmother
Some Navajo/Dineh limit the telling of stories involving Spider Grandmother to the winter months, which spiders supposedly spend asleep, to avoid attracting her attention or offending her.
...maybe we should wait a few months to be 8)
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

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Post by Cindy B. »

Myrtle wrote:Maybe Glykon/Glycon?
Scroll to statuette image on lower right
http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

If not, is it similar to this?
:cry: No, Glykon has human characteristics. And it's not old enough. The attitude is too erect, too. :cry:

Plus I realize now that should have also mentioned that my proto-Hermes had no scales. It was carved smooth.


Have you had enough of this yet, Myrtle? Seriously. You and I both know that this could go on for a looong time. Please do not feel obligated to me, promise? And you get to pick the next one. :D


One thing I can do to help, and considered but was concerned about perhaps causing unnecessary confusion, is provide an image of a coiled snake that at least gives the overall impression of the figure's presentation. I noticed one while searching that was reasonably suggestive of posture, but the placement of the head was not quite right; it was not black either. I'll take another look.


And, Neoplato, Abraxas is not old enough either, and also has human features. :( But it was a decent call. :)


Thanks so very much, all. I shall be back soon.


Ciao!
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

ALOberhoulser wrote:Did the Toltec experience this same dilemma? Great Goddess of Teotihuacan

...and then there is the Spider Grandmother
Some Navajo/Dineh limit the telling of stories involving Spider Grandmother to the winter months, which spiders supposedly spend asleep, to avoid attracting her attention or offending her.
...maybe we should wait a few months to be 8)
Al,

Want to give this a go in another thread in this forum? :D Set up your own area of interest and start with a couple questions, then see where it leads you. I think that it would be awesome to focus on the Americas, and I bet that you'd draw a lot of interest and folks who would want to contribute something along the way. What do you think?

In the meantime, over here we're hanging out in the ancient Mediterranean regions, so I do want to keep the two separate.

Let us know what you might decide to do, okay? :)

Adios!
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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