A past interview uncovered: A " Cafe' " Discussion

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:I'm catching up.

James wrote;


Yes Andreas; I think that indeed is part of the issue. The global societies are now in a state of dysfunction and the old cultural myths no longer serve the needs they once addressed. The world needs something new to survive but unfortunately the processes for this to take place will not emerge by expectation but must evolve over time and no one knows what they will look like or when they will occur.
I am not sure what you mean by won't emerge by expectation. I think it was during the Power of Myth interviews that Campbell said myths do not come from the people, they come from a select few.

Vyasa wrote the Mahabharata. We know who wrote the books of the Bible. There was a council of Nicaea.

I don't see anything wrong with being proactive. What have we got to lose? It can't get much worse.

I believe that people making up their own mythologies out of ignorance is a bad thing. Biker gangs create codes of conduct. Street gangs have codes of conduct. Codes which are primitive in my opinion.

I believe that the myth of the world person would be a welcomed alternative to the cultural myths many people are trapped in.

I don't have any expectations, but it seems to me that without attention Campbell's spore will never become moss.
Ron.

I should probably clarify the " expectation " reference since the way I applied it might be confusing and was a little out of the original context Joseph used it in. In " The Hero's Journey " there is a point where he is quoting from the " Gospel of Thomas " where he is illustrating the difference between that version and the other 4 gospels. It's an important insight concerning perspective in the way one understands this Gnostic approach as compared to the others. When one of the disciples asked about the coming of the " End of the World " he says: " Master when will the Kingdom come? " And Jesus replies: " The Kingdom will not come by ( expectation ). They will not say; see here, see there. The Kingdom of the Father is spread upon the earth and men do not see it. " In this Christian interpretation of the Gospel Joe is referring to a spiritual psychological position of reflective " inward " emphasis as opposed to the " outer " projection of religion normally associated with the other 4 gospels such as the fire and brimstone of the Last Judgment. And this is also has to do with what he refers to about the state of the world. When he says: " it's perfect just the way it is " this is where he's coming from if I remember correctly. It's a Buddhist insight if I understand it properly; but the point is about changing perspective I believe.

I don't think he means people shouldn't try to make things better; but you are not going to change things by shifting them around. One needs to open up to the miracle and wonder that life is; but you are not going to change the monstrous nature of it. Certainly you can help to relieve much of it's suffering; but balance, perspective, not judging, and trying to straighten out one's own life seems to me to be at least part of the message he is trying to convey I think.

I'll try to get back to this soon but I need to call it a day for now.

Cheers
:)
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

But don't forget the East and West have very different approaches concerning the ego and society as regarding the individual's role and their relationship to " fulfillment " for lack of a better word here. Joseph mentions the rock solid ego of the western individual and the difference of the eastern emphasis on serving the greater society first as opposed to individualism in the west. And this I think is where westerners may be different concerning detachment if I'm understanding what you are pointing out. -James
Like you said James this is a generalization. I understand the difference but I don't agree with it. I believe that every society has those who would act without any question what the society dictates and every society also has people who they just won't submit to the demands or the rules of society. So in my opinion there is no difference there. And you continue.
In the western tradition say like in Christianity; there is this concretized focus on the factual and historical as opposed to the symbolic or metaphorical; in the east not as much; and also the emphasis is shifted one could say to a less ego oriented interpretation as to functioning within the society itself. At least this is a distinction I seem to remember Joe making in " The Power of Myth ".
Again there is no difference, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Science and any other belief system, all concertize the transcendent mystery. It is a necessity in order for any belief system to be valid. I don't think any belief system can work unless it is believed to be true and factual. If that is not the case then people would embrace the paradoxical aspect of life.

That is my opinion. ;)
The wonder and awe that a scientist feels are religious experiences. I was a scientist and I know this for a fact. Unfortunately science can become the only “true” path. The new mythology must honor all of the dimensions of our personality and provide paths for our wills and our hearts as well as our minds. - Ron
Yes but that is not science. The religious experience begins where knowledge stops. But the scientific community doesn't care about religious experiences other than analyze it as a phenomenon. Science operates under strict rules about how the universe works.

Seems to me anyway.
Last edited by Andreas on Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Andreas »

Mythology indeed doesn't come by expectation. Myth is like the scientific discoveries or any discovery. The first navigators didnt sit down on a table and decided how to navigate... They ponder on the stars and the universe and the cosmos and then it dawned on them how to navigate, that is what mythology is. If you sit down and decide what myth we should live by, then we don't have mythology, we have ideology.

Which brings me to what Ron said about rules. If are we supposed to live our lives by rules then I propose its my rules. :lol:
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Yes Andreas; a lot of good points you make.

My thoughts about the purpose of the thread has more to do with the second post in some regards as to the consideration of Joe's themes in a broader context than the first one. But the first post has some clarity needed as to what I was attempting to point out.


Andreas:
I believe that every society has those who would act without any question what the society dictates and every society also has people who they just won't submit to the demands or the rules of society.
This to me refers to the task of the " Hero's Journey " which is what Joseph Campbell illuminates; and yes I agree with this very much. My comments refer to what Joseph describes in the " Power of Myth " as I understood them; and they were generalized although rather loosely I admit.

Andreas:
Again there is no difference, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Science and any other belief system, all concertize the transcendent mystery. It is a necessity in order for any belief system to be valid. I don't think any belief system can work unless it is believed to be true and factual.
The same approach goes here. Yes indeed I think that was what he was saying; but I also recall he went into detail as to what the differences were ( but ) it was the overall function of what belief systems were suppose to be serving and how this has changed which he was illustrating. That's whole point.

The wonder and awe that a scientist feels are religious experiences. I was a scientist and I know this for a fact. Unfortunately science can become the only “true” path. The new mythology must honor all of the dimensions of our personality and provide paths for our wills and our hearts as well as our minds. - Ron

__________

Andreas:
Yes but that is not science. The religious experience begins where knowledge stops. But the scientific community doesn't care about religious experiences other than analyze it as a phenomenon. Science operates under strict rules about how the universe works.

This has been discussed many times on the forums and IMHO this distinction is what Joseph was trying to clarify.


Andreas:
Mythology indeed doesn't come by expectation. Myth is like the scientific discoveries or any discovery. The first navigators didn't sit down on a table and decided how to navigate... They ponder on the stars and the universe and the cosmos and then it dawned on them how to navigate, that is what mythology is. If you sit down and decide what myth we should live by, then we don't have mythology, we have ideology.
Yes; explorers are most definitely hero's and they ponder or contemplate what the possibilities are and they go forth. ( Absolutely there is no question there is a big difference between someone like Hitler and Leonardo Da Vinci. :P ) And to me this ( open ) " generalized " discussion about Joseph's work; the video, a new myth, and the audio forum lectures is what we are " exploring " in this thread; but in a " realistic " sense of course.

On the subject of " generalized "; I hope this thread might be a way to kind of open out a lot of the themes and connect them together at the same time. I am not saying there should not be disagreement or needed clarity on any idea; of course not. But there really is no one single thread here on the forums where we can do that so far as I can tell; and this gives the opportunity to kind of " connect-the-dots " so to speak; as a kind of larger focus of running dialogue or conversation. The " Odd Comments " thread seems to really serve more of a " news of the moment " I think which is important; and most of the other threads are topic focused. Clemsy is here to guide or suggest what adjustments might need to be considered; but I don't think of the focus here so much in terms of a place to debate and defend a particular idea; but more along the consideration of a philosophical grand line or theme approach; if that makes sense. What I'm getting at is I remember many times over the years people use to gather around tables in coffee houses, bars, and restaurants and in living rooms and other gathering places and have open discussion where new ideas as well as old ones would be pursued in a kind of general discourse. One of the most important aspects of the Paris community where Joe was exposed to many of the influences that were later affect the direction his studies took place was in what was then referred to as the " café society " where all the artists, writers, and poets gathered to shared their thoughts. And not taking this too literately I think it's this aspect of Joseph's ideas having this kind of " interconnectedness " to them might be well served is this regard. And so far it seems to be working don't you think? I hope so. :wink:



Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

You posted while I was writing. Thanks for the comments about the Café society. I think that is the perfect description for this thread. A speculative discussion by experienced individuals. My hope is that it may help someone grow some new moss.

Back to it.

Andreas,

I agree that the new myth should come from experience and should benefit from experts. That is why I am posting at the JCF site. I know the rules are the hardest part, but wouldn't it be nice if we had a really well thought out message to tell our children., instead of "It is OK to beat women if they are disobedient," or " the world is a complete mess good luck."

It seems to me that the best experts for a code of behavior would be our real heroes. I was in the army when I was young and I met some very honorable leaders who were wonderful human beings. There is a story that when General Eisenhower saw the bombers take off to bomb Germany, he wept.

Perhaps these experts could help develop a path for our willful organ, or dimension.

Andreas wrote,

Quote:
The wonder and awe that a scientist feels are religious experiences. I was a scientist and I know this for a fact. Unfortunately science can become the only “true” path. The new mythology must honor all of the dimensions of our personality and provide paths for our wills and our hearts as well as our minds. - Ron


Yes but that is not science. The religious experience begins where knowledge stops. But the scientific community doesn't care about religious experiences other than analyze it as a phenomenon. Science operates under strict rules about how the universe works.
Interestingly, this isn't true. The more scientist learn about something, the more amazing it becomes. Knowledge enhances the awe. Science doesn't study religious experience because it is outside the scientific method. If it could be tested they would be all over it. As you say, to analyze it.

I believe that all the religions and science are the same, but with a different emphasis. The Buddhist and Hindu traditions focus on the consciousness organ, whereas old testament Christianity focuses on the willful organ, and the new testament emphasizes the heart organ. Science focuses on the brain.

These are great sources and should be incorporated into the new moss.

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Post by Andreas »

I think so too, James. :)

Btw, did you know that Hitler wanted to be a painter? He was rejected twice from the German academy of arts or whatever its called. After that I think he joined the military. His paintings were pretty good too. If he was accepted, could we have avoided 60 mil deaths and the atrocities that happened in war? I don't know.

Which reminds me of the movie The Bridge on the River Kwai where the Japanese officer sits together with the stubborn British officer and opens his heart and confesses to him that he doesn't like war and that all he ever wanted to be was an artist.

Anyways.

PS Ron we posted simultaneously. I'll come back later.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Andreas »

....Perhaps these experts could help develop a path for our willful organ, or dimension.
Ron what we consider heroic is subjective. What you say is a real hero, I say is a real villain. In our Western cultures and mostly in the US we have just redefined conquering to liberating.

And no that doesn't mean that I agree with saying that it is "OK to beat women if they are disobedient" or anything else pervasive man can think of.
Interestingly, this isn't true. The more scientist learn about something, the more amazing it becomes. Knowledge enhances the awe.
I don't know about that... There is a place where knowledge dissolves.
I believe that all the religions and science are the same, but with a different emphasis. The Buddhist and Hindu traditions focus on the consciousness organ, whereas old testament Christianity focuses on the willful organ, and the new testament emphasizes the heart organ. Science focuses on the brain.
I agree with that. I also believe that the experience a scientist has is the same with that of a religious person with a different costume ofcourse, still...

Anyway, I am off to chill out a bit. Cya later.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Unless there is any objection since we seem to be in agreement on the subject's direction I have taken the liberty of modifying the title somewhat so as to better clarify the thread topic and possibly encourage more discussion. I'll be in and out just in case anyone has thoughts concerning this and we can go from there.

Cheers :)


Addendum: I just spotted this on the homepage and thought you might get a kick out of it. :lol:
The old gods are dead or dying and people everywhere are searching, asking: What is the new mythology to be, the mythology of this unified earth as of one harmonious being?


Joseph Campbell
Inner Reaches of Outer Space
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

I like the new title. It should help point out that this is a discussion not a debate.

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Post by JamesN. »

Exactly. Thank you Ron; that was the point! :wink:

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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

Andreas,

I hope my poor writing style isn't bothering you. I was just pointing out examples which were not meant to be personal in any way.

Your posts are inspiring. For example, I was listing reasons for a new mythology and you wrote.

Ron what we consider heroic is subjective. What you say is a real hero, I say is a real villain. In our Western cultures and mostly in the US we have just redefined conquering to liberating.
That was a beautiful statement for the need for new myth. Seriously, wouldn't it be great to define what it meant to be a world hero so politicians and capitalists could be held to a standard.

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Post by Andreas »

I hope my poor writing style isn't bothering you. I was just pointing out examples which were not meant to be personal in any way.
- Ron
Ron, not at all. Anyway I just thought I let you know about this but it is really late here so I am off. Tomorrow we can discuss more about the politicians if you want but dont expect something hopeful from me on that department. :P
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Andreas »

That was a beautiful statement for the need for new myth. Seriously, wouldn't it be great to define what it meant to be a world hero so politicians and capitalists could be held to a standard.
I don't generally disagree with what you are saying or with that quote of Campbell James posted but at the same time I am pretty sure that everyone has their own ideas of what a hero is or should be.

Even Campbell admits that this world mythology that he mentions might be his wishful thinking.

I just don't think mythology is something we define, something we agree on, its not math.

Campbell mentions pretty clearly, and it is not because he says that, that I believe it, but because it made sense.
Moyers: Unlike heroes such as Prometheus or Jesus, we're not going on our journey to save the world but to save ourselves.

Campbell: But in doing that you save the world. The influence of a vital person vitalizes, there's no doubt about it. The world without spirit is a wasteland. People have the notion of saving the world by shifting things around, changing the rules, and who's on top, and so forth. No, no! Any world is a valid world if it's alive. The thing to do is to bring life to it, and the only way to do that is to find in your own case where the life is and become alive yourself.
So... myth and rules.. I don't know, it doesn't seem right to me. But go for it anyway and we will see if we are agree, but if I judge from the conversations here and in other forums, I have my doubts that we can agree on anything. :lol:

Then again maybe that is a necessary step in finding a new myth... Complicated stuff.

PS I like the new title also, nice James.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Thank you both for your support about the title clarification. This seems to me to be a more accurate fit for what we are trying to do here and hopefully this will encourage a more interesting and enjoyable discussion wherever it leads us.

We are all trying to make our way in life as it were; and many come to these forums for different reasons and have different ideas about things. Indeed that I think is one of the beauties about what draws us here and the fact that we are allowed to share our insights together and learn from each other. I also think it reflects the spirit of these forums and in many ways are a testament to Joseph's legacy in his efforts to provide and promote human understanding; at least that's my sense of this place and one of the things that caught me. A search for meaning and making sense of this difficult journey that life is that we all must travel is hard enough; and we can use all the help we can get to navigate the process.

No Andreas; I think you are perfectly correct about agreement in that sense. And that's how we learn from each other; no? Sharing opinions and working through them in finding common ground I think. ( We all have different tastes but everyone likes to eat; yes? ); and perhaps along the way we may find something new to discover that opens up possibilities. To me that's what's important to keep in mind in this case. The world evolves and changes and we must also; otherwise we would still be back in the Dark Ages and never would have made it to the moon. Who knows what new potentials lie ahead? We are just having a conversation about some of these thoughts; and Joseph I think would have joined right in and loved every minute of it.
:wink:
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Post by Roncooper »

I think I should forget the rules for now. I have a tendency to start at the hardest place, which isn't always wise.

Andreas brought up the Buddhist concept of detachment and I was thinking about this in terms of a new mythology that will provide paths for all of our dimensions, organs.

The question is, does detachment belong uniquely to the path of consciousness, or do all of the paths require detachment? And secondly is detachment merely a method of focusing on the path of interest and rejecting the others, or does it also provide some special insights?

I have to think about this and would appreciate any wise counsel.

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