A past interview uncovered: A " Cafe' " Discussion

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Ron:
The question is, does detachment belong uniquely to the path of consciousness, or do all of the paths require detachment? And secondly is detachment merely a method of focusing on the path of interest and rejecting the others, or does it also provide some special insights?
Ron.

I think it would depend upon the way one interprets their idea of what detachment represents. I would see this in terms of " projection " in this particular reference. Not necessarily in terms of engagement; but in not concretizing whatever the subject symbolizes or becoming emotionally connected to it as far as consciousness is concerned; if that is what you are considering. At least that is the way I understand how this would be seen. That would not be the same as detachment seen as a total disconnection.

Wu wei for instance is an eastern concept of the awareness of something and engagement without direct involvement; of observing or watching but not forcing. So that one becomes engaged through awareness yet at the same time removed or detached. If one is a parent for instance; letting the child learn the life lesson needed without directly interfering with it's outcome; counseling but yet at the same time stepping back. ( Maybe not the best example in this instance; but you get the general idea. ) Another point of interest to add here that might be worth considering is Carl Jung recommends that in the process of " individuation " that one should let go of all forms of projection. ( Just thought I would throw that one in there to add to the mixture. )
:wink: :)
Last edited by JamesN. on Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

My thought about all concepts is that they need balance. Like the ancient Greeks used to say "all in good measure." Too much detachment and we end up living in a mountain, too much attachment and we cant accept life as it is with all its suffering.

Just my opinion...
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:My thought about all concepts is that they need balance. Like the ancient Greeks used to say "all in good measure." Too much detachment and we end up living in a mountain, too much attachment and we cant accept life as it is with all its suffering.

Just my opinion...
As I was adding to the response you were posting Andreas so we may or may not agree on this one. My thought here is not about balance; but perception. Engagement and acceptance are two different things. For instance one can advise their child but love and accept them for who they are. The point you are presenting is a good one and relevant to remember; but my thought had to do with a different interpretation of the idea as sometimes understood in the west. ( Just saying. ) :wink:
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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

The idea of perception and symbol interpretation is an interesting one that I believe is a major theme of Joseph's and his work in " comparative " mythology shows this. " Detachment " might a good example of this I think. Joe mentions in POM that in the west religion has a tendency to become personalized or concretized; the symbol is interpreted literally instead of metaphorically and loses it message. The historical and factual is emphasized and the symbolic reference is misunderstood. The stories; acts; and content contained within the Christian myth is a perfect example of this; so that the rituals are interpreted as a projection of an authoritative representation of example to follow instead of a symbolic suggestion of experience to reflect upon and integrate within one's consciousness.

In the east " some " of the religions would interpret their myth symbolically as a representation of an internal experience like Buddhism or Hinduism; as opposed to Islam where the symbols of the religion are interpreted as literal factualized edicts of authority. So that if one uses the term ( detachment ) it could be seen or understood in very different ways. That was my point. ( Just thought I would make another attempt at clarity. :lol: )
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

These are complicated examples of detachment. Andreas your example of the balanced path, or what the Buddha called the middle way, requires a detachment from your own passion. In the same way James your example of not smothering your children requires a detachment from emotion. It is like the idea that in order to achieve the goals of the heart, the heart must be able to stand aside.

The concept of detachment I had for the heart came from Jesus. He said love your enemy and don't judge. These require unconditional love or detachment from requirements and even self preservation.

Intellectual pursuits, like science, require that the scientist be detached from their own opinion, which will bias and destroy the objectivity of the experiment..

This detachment concept seems to be pretty universal only with a different emphasis that depends on the goals. I have to think about this some more.

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Post by Andreas »

Hey guys,

I offered the example of detachment in relation to what Campbell said in that interview about body and consciousness.

I like it though that both of you point out that this concept can be interpreted in many different ways and I never thought of all these different applications. So I searched wiki just to see how many other points of views exist about this concept and here is what I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detachment_(philosophy) ....

(I cannot get this link to work right, go under the category Detachment_(philosophy) to see what I mean.)

To me, how Taoism understands the concept says the most.
The Tao Te Ching expressed the concept (in chapter 44) as:

Fame or Self: Which matters more? Self or Wealth: Which is more precious? Gain or Loss: Which is more painful? He who is attached to things will suffer much. He who saves will suffer heavy loss. A contented man is rarely disappointed. He who knows when to stop does not find himself in trouble. He will stay forever safe.
But I still stand by my opinion that every concept or emotion needs balance even compassion. After all too much compassion can be destructive.

I like what Campbell said though, I think it was in POM, about the difference between our western traditions and the Japanese Zen. He said that in our culture every natural impulse is to be corrected but in Zen philosophy every natural impulse is to be beautified..

I am sorry if I am confusing and bring to many concepts and subjects maybe irrelevant to the conversation but I am making this as I go.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey you guys. Both of your posts are such great examples of the tone and trajectory of what I had hoped would result in this thread; and to me it encourages even more exploration of possibility.

Ron:
These are complicated examples of detachment. Andreas your example of the balanced path, or what the Buddha called the middle way, requires a detachment from your own passion. In the same way James your example of not smothering your children requires a detachment from emotion. It is like the idea that in order to achieve the goals of the heart, the heart must be able to stand aside.

The concept of detachment I had for the heart came from Jesus. He said love your enemy and don't judge. These require unconditional love or detachment from requirements and even self preservation.

Intellectual pursuits, like science, require that the scientist be detached from their own opinion, which will bias and destroy the objectivity of the experiment..

This detachment concept seems to be pretty universal only with a different emphasis that depends on the goals. I have to think about this some more.

Yes Ron; I think your ideas are an excellent reflective consideration on a " west meets east " approach. The scientific analogy was an interesting cross reference; and one I think Joseph would very much support.


Andreas:
Hey guys,

I offered the example of detachment in relation to what Campbell said in that interview about body and consciousness.

I like it though that both of you point out that this concept can be interpreted in many different ways and I never thought of all these different applications. So I searched wiki just to see how many other points of views exist about this concept and here is what I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detachment_(philosophy) ....

(I cannot get this link to work right, go under the category Detachment_(philosophy) to see what I mean.)

To me, how Taoism understands the concept says the most.


Quote:
The Tao Te Ching expressed the concept (in chapter 44) as:

Fame or Self: Which matters more? Self or Wealth: Which is more precious? Gain or Loss: Which is more painful? He who is attached to things will suffer much. He who saves will suffer heavy loss. A contented man is rarely disappointed. He who knows when to stop does not find himself in trouble. He will stay forever safe.


But I still stand by my opinion that every concept or emotion needs balance even compassion. After all too much compassion can be destructive.

I like what Campbell said though, I think it was in POM, about the difference between our western traditions and the Japanese Zen. He said that in our culture every natural impulse is to be corrected but in Zen philosophy every natural impulse is to be beautified..

I am sorry if I am confusing and bring to many concepts and subjects maybe irrelevant to the conversation but I am making this as I go.

Yes Andreas for me personally I think exposure to the " I Ching " such be an absolute requirement in school curriculums in the west. What might be described as a " psychological position " of contemplation is in my understanding one of it's main objectives; not just as a " divining rod " or " oracle of the gods " as is often assumed. ( However certain western clerics might not approve of that idea. )

I would add here though there maybe some confusion as to the role " emotion " plays and indeed serves within this particular paradigm. As I understand what Cindy has pointed out on several occasions it is a main conduit of access within the subconscious to it's contents; and without it there is no access to assimilate meaning within reality. ( To me this would be like the disconnection of an electrical plug into an outlet; no plug no juice. ) Maybe not the most accurate example; but the best I can come up with at the moment.

Speaking of which; it should also be noted that we could also be moving into Jungian territory within some of these elements since the point of what we are discussing here I think has to do with " ( awareness ) of one's own consciousness " and through this portal the position or direction of engagement one choses.

You folks may have other ideas to offer on this. ( Great input you guys. ) 8)
:)
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

This Taoist quote is directed at a personal level, and works without reference to any system. That is really nice. For a long time I have felt that I don't own things, they own me.

I remember when I learned the value of things. When I was drafted, during the Viet Nam war, we were issued uniforms and bathroom articles. These were stored in a big bag, called a duffle bag. We were told to box up our old belongings to ship home, and that we could keep what we wanted, but what we kept we had to carry. Given that the stuff they issued weighed about 40 kg, things lost their glamor, and most people sent everything home. Surprisingly, we didn't seem to miss them.

IMO Taoist philosophy is in conflict with "the world is my oyster capitalism." I don't know how to deal with that problem.

Taoism would make for a saner more sustainable world, Like you say, one way to sell it is as a psychological perspective.

It has a lot in common with Sanatana Dharma in Hinduism, "The eternal natural way."

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Post by Andreas »

Guys, I am gonna be off for a couple of days... Too much thinking is too much. But I will come back, this is a very interesting conversation.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Roncooper »

I would like to comment on what Campbell said during the 19th and 20th minute of the talk. Again I will do so from the "new mythology" perspective.

He said that the body is the temporary vehicle of consciousness, and death is not loss.

I understand that there are various interpretations of this. This can be considered an illusion, a psychological necessity, or a form of the truth. I don't want to debate this. What I want to address is the use of the word consciousness.

In my version of the new mythology, consciousness is one of the dimensions, or organs, and so I think it would be better to use the word personality. I know this seems like a little point, but doing so honors the other organs.

When a person has a "thou art that" experience the Whole enters their consciousness and is experienced as self. This is the great transcendent experience for our consciousness and I can see that it would be easy to conclude that the transcendent is consciousness.

In the new mythology all of the organs would have transcendent experiences. These don't "enter our consciousness" in the same way because they are not in that dimension.

I haven't thought this through, but here are some examples of what they might be. For the will it might be "being in the zone." Campbell said his peak experiences came when he was running a race and he knew he couldn't lose.

For the heart it might be unconditional love. For the intellect it might be gaining insight, and for the creative dimension I would suggest inspiration.

These, or better examples, would be "experiencing the Whole" for our other dimensions and so it seems unfair to set consciousness above them. So, I propose that, for the new myth, transcendent personality be used rather than consciousness.

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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:I would like to comment on what Campbell said during the 19th and 20th minute of the talk. Again I will do so from the "new mythology" perspective.

He said that the body is the temporary vehicle of consciousness, and death is not loss.

I understand that there are various interpretations of this. This can be considered an illusion, a psychological necessity, or a form of the truth. I don't want to debate this. What I want to address is the use of the word consciousness.

In my version of the new mythology, consciousness is one of the dimensions, or organs, and so I think it would be better to use the word personality. I know this seems like a little point, but doing so honors the other organs.

When a person has a "thou art that" experience the Whole enters their consciousness and is experienced as self. This is the great transcendent experience for our consciousness and I can see that it would be easy to conclude that the transcendent is consciousness.

In the new mythology all of the organs would have transcendent experiences. These don't "enter our consciousness" in the same way because they are not in that dimension.

I haven't thought this through, but here are some examples of what they might be. For the will it might be "being in the zone." Campbell said his peak experiences came when he was running a race and he knew he couldn't lose.

For the heart it might be unconditional love. For the intellect it might be gaining insight, and for the creative dimension I would suggest inspiration.

These, or better examples, would be "experiencing the Whole" for our other dimensions and so it seems unfair to set consciousness above them. So, I propose that, for the new myth, transcendent personality be used rather than consciousness.


Hey Ron; I may have to disagree with your use of the word " personality " in this particular case. I think I get your meaning and I like parts of the idea you are using; but this IMHO is definitely " Jungian " territory. Cindy would be more qualified on this than I am; but to me the term " consciousness " has to do more with ( awareness or illumination than expression ) as far as the " mindset " is concerned. You are now dealing with the interplay between the ego, self, subconscious, and the " good ole persona "; if you know what I mean; much less " organ dialogue ". Just saying here; you know. :wink: I do think however that Joseph was all about gaining ( revelations ) from new " comparative " insights. That I believe is what he was trying to convey with the references you are using. I realize you are not trying to " re-invent the wheel "; but since this is a ( cafe' ) " contemplation " perhaps I am not understanding you clearly enough. ) :?
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thanks for the input. What is the name for a person's complete personality in Jungian terms? I'm not up on his terminology.

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Post by Andreas »

I don't know about the Jungian term but "experience" might be the word you are looking for.

:P

The psyche... the soul, if only was so easy to analyze and pin down. Last time I checked epic works were written on the subject..

And consciousness, for me, means the immaterial.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:James,

Thanks for the input. What is the name for a person's complete personality in Jungian terms? I'm not up on his terminology.
( And ):

Andreas:
I don't know about the Jungian term but "experience" might be the word you are looking for.

Razz

The psyche... the soul, if only was so easy to analyze and pin down. Last time I checked epic works were written on the subject..

And consciousness, for me, means the immaterial.


Hey guys. Here is the lexicon link from the " Jung in the Weeds " thread Cindy has so thoughtfully supplied for folks interested in these definitions. Yes; " Personality " is listed as well as: Individuality, Persona, Experience, Personal Unconscious, and any other terminology that may be of assistance so that you may ascertain the meanings to your particular thoughts. I would suggest reading beyond ( Personality ):


http://www.psychceu.com/jung/sharplexicon.html

Personality.

Aspects of the soul as it functions in the world. (See also individuality.)
For the development of personality, differentiation from collective values, particularly those embodied in and adhered to by the persona, is essential.

A change from one milieu to another brings about a striking alteration of personality, and on each occasion a clearly defined character emerges that is noticeably different from the previous one. . . . The social character is oriented on the one hand by the expectations and demands of society, and on the other by the social aims and aspirations of the individual. The domestic character is, as a rule, moulded by emotional demands and an easy-going acquiescence for the sake of comfort and convenience; when it frequently happens that men who in public life are extremely energetic, spirited, obstinate, wilful and ruthless appear good-natured, mild, compliant, even weak, when at home and in the bosom of the family. Which is the true character, the real personality? . . .
. . . . In my view the answer to the above question should be that such a man has no real character at all: he is not individual but collective, the plaything of circumstance and general expectations. Were he individual, he would have the same character despite the variation of attitude. He would not be identical with the attitude of the moment, and he neither would nor could prevent his individuality from expressing itself just as clearly in one state as in another.["Definitions," CW 6, pars. 798f.]

( On a personal note; every time I read these I am so humbly reminded of how far I've yet to go before I am even remotely close to being truly informed on this. I am deep in the learning stage in this area ) Also we may be mixing eastern and western understandings or definitions of consciousness; but concerning the distinctions I myself don't really feel qualified to make an assessment on this. Perhaps Clemsy or again Cindy might be better able to advise.

Consciousness.

The function or activity which maintains the relation of psychic contents to the ego; distinguished conceptually from the psyche, which encompasses both consciousness and the unconscious. (See also opposites.)

There is no consciousness without discrimination of opposites.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 178.]
There are two distinct ways in which consciousness arises. The one is a moment of high emotional tension, comparable to the scene in Parsifal where the hero, at the very moment of greatest temptation, suddenly realizes the meaning of Amfortas' wound. The other is a state of contemplation, in which ideas pass before the mind like dream-images. Suddenly there is a flash of association between two apparently disconnected and widely separated ideas, and this has the effect of releasing a latent tension. Such a moment often works like a revelation. In every case it seems to be the discharge of energy-tension, whether external or internal, which produces consciousness.["Analytical Psychology and Education," CW 17, par. 207.]
In Jung's view of the psyche, individual consciousness is a superstructure based on, and arising out of, the unconscious.
Consciousness does not create itself-it wells up from unknown depths. In childhood it awakens gradually, and all through life it wakes each morning out of the depths of sleep from an unconscious condition. It is like a child that is born daily out of the primordial womb of the unconscious. . . . It is not only influenced by the unconscious but continually emerges out of it in the form of numberless spontaneous ideas and sudden flashes of thought.["The Psychology of Eastern Meditation," CW 11, par. 935.]


Ron you may find this site very helpful if you have not spent any time there. As Andreas could probably verify; the " Weeds " thread is pretty amazing.




( BTW Ron and Andreas; I just happen to remember this link on another thread you may or may not be interested in concerning the " Philosopher's Stone ". Cindy and I were discussing " Alchemy " and it came up. )

http://www.crystalinks.com/philosopherstone.html

Here is what she mentions.

Cindy:
So you know, James, Jung's own intense study of Alchemy led him to say that the spiritual alchemists were actually the first "depth psychologists." Their quest for The Philosopher's Stone had influence on his conceptualizations of individuation and Self.
( See what you think. ) :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Cindy B. »

Roncooper wrote:What is the name for a person's complete personality in Jungian terms? I'm not up on his terminology.
Self. :)


P.S. And this may help to clarify basic conceptual differences and terminologies in traditional Western and Eastern mindsets per Jungian psychology: http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?catego ... &blogid=18
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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