A past interview uncovered: A " Cafe' " Discussion

Are you looking for a quotation that you can't quite place? Trying to track down a hard-to-find publication? Here, folks can help you find the answers, or discuss ways for you to discover them for yourself.

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:
Roncooper wrote:What is the name for a person's complete personality in Jungian terms? I'm not up on his terminology.
Self. :)


P.S. And this may help to clarify basic conceptual differences and terminologies in traditional Western and Eastern mindsets per Jungian psychology: http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?catego ... &blogid=18

( Cindy that article you wrote was absolutely fabulous! ) This quote seems to me to point out at least some of the differences with the dualistic nature of the western mindset as to " west meets east " if I understand it correctly:
For the Westerner, this dualistic paradigm permeates our experiences and interpretations of ourselves and the world, and when we come into contact with other mental paradigms and give consideration to adopting aspects of them, we have little choice but to adjust our understanding and perspective from within the bounds of this pre-existent mindset, one that has shaped our modern Western cultures and societies, our ways of living, our sense of ourselves, others, God, the universe…

…and this includes the typical Western experiences of mind and spirituality.



But I saw another quote in particular that may prove helpful toward some of my understandings on several other issues as well. ( I'll move that one over to the proper thread. )

Very cool. 8)

Thank you so very much.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Never understood the dichotomy of East and West. Might be because I choose to dismiss societal demands.. The dichotomy between old and new made much more sense to me.

Anyway, just saying..
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:Never understood the dichotomy of East and West. Might be because I choose to dismiss societal demands.. The dichotomy between old and new made much more sense to me.

Anyway, just saying..
Hey Andreas. To me the point of separate mindsets of: monism - east verses dualism - west is the main difference that caught me:
To start, we Westerners live from within a collective mindset that entails a dualistic (subject-object) relational paradigm. This dualistic relational paradigm is intrinsic to the Western psyche, and please note that there is nothing inherently “wrong” with this dualism, a frequently voiced view among some in the West; it simply is, and this mental paradigm is a naturally occurring expression of the human psyche just as is the complementary expression of the traditional Eastern mind that tends toward monism and idealism.
Is this what your are referring to as societal or are you pointing toward something else? :? :)
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Post by Andreas »

To me the point of separate mindsets of: monism - east verses dualism - west is the main difference that caught me- James
James, these "mindsets" seems to me that they are universal experiences not exclusive to one culture or another. There is conflict of course between eastern and western thought . I am not sure where that comes from... But what society considers right or wrong could be one reason.

Something like that... :P
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Andreas »

I just went to wiki to see, again, the different points of view.

And again tao...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism#On ... al_dualism
Alternatively, dualism can mean the tendency of humans to perceive and understand the world as being divided into two overarching categories. In this sense, it is dualistic when one perceives a tree as a thing separate from everything surrounding it. This form of ontological dualism exists in Taoism and Confucianism, beliefs that divide the universe into the complementary oppositions of yin and yang.[5] In traditions such as classical Hinduism, Zen Buddhism or Islamic Sufism, a key to enlightenment is "transcending" this sort of dualistic thinking, without merely substituting dualism with monism or pluralism.
:!:

Then I read this...
Some of the common associations with yang and yin, respectively, are: male and female, light and dark, active and passive, motion and stillness. The yin and yang symbol in actuality has very little to do with Western dualism; instead it represents the philosophy of balance, where two opposites co-exist in harmony and are able to transmute into each other.
Which makes me think that the argument is not about dualism vs monism but between Western dualism vs Eastern dualism... :lol:

Whatever!
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Roncooper »

For me Eastern thought was influenced by the Hindu and Buddhist perspectives. These teach that the goal is to experience the environment as self. This works for certain people, but for the rest Hinduism has provided the various Yogas and Mahayana Buddhism has rituals and prayer wheels, etc.

I think the need for both dualist and monistic perspectives can be traced back to the dimensions of the personality.( I will change this word after another post)

The goal of the conscious path is to experience the environment as self.-monistic
The goal of the heart is to love another. -dualistic
The goal of the will is to win with honor. - dualistic
The goal of our creativity is the creation of transcendent beauty. -dualistic
The goal of the intellect is understanding the environment. - this is both dualistic and monistic.

I believe the different traditions emphasized different aspects of the human self and gave us the diversity we need. The way forward is not to debate which is right but to accept the gifts each tradition has given modern society.

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Post by Roncooper »

Cindy,

Thank you for the reply. I read your article. It was very enlightening.

I see you suggested Self with a capitol S. I see from the article that this is the archetype of the whole. The Hindu system also uses Self. In their system this is Brahman. Are these the same thing? I interpret Jung's view as the Self is the whole person, but it seems to point beyond.

The Self seems to be a good choice but it may be too big. I was looking for a word to represent subjective human reality, both conscious and unconscious. Perhaps Self is it and it will be necessary to differentiate it from the Hindu definition.

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Post by JamesN. »

Thanks for the clarity Andreas.

I think what Cindy was doing was providing some insight into where some of the confusion might lie; ( you know something to consider while exploring this ). Not as a statement of what " will or won't " work given a particular circumstance. ( That was my impression. )

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the points you raise; but for me Ron makes a valid observation that both perspectives are " relative "; ( if I'm understanding him correctly ). Which by the way I believe refers ( precisely ) to the " Sin " symbol of Yin/Yang you illustrate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang

There is also the " subjective " aspect to be considered in all of this but I think it's also important to remember that Joseph Campbell spent a great amount of time in his efforts to help reveal to people more clearly not only ( what ) the differences were; but how to better understand what these various dimensions were saying " in relationship to " the individual ( given ) a particular situation " because " of the public's confusion and misunderstanding.

( Just trying not to fall into any " rabbit holes " while adding to stir the pot here. :wink: :P )

Speaking of which; Ron's question about Self is " spot on " I think.
:)
Last edited by JamesN. on Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Roncooper
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Post by Roncooper »

James,

Thanks for the link to Jung's lexicon. I think I will spend a long time there.

I read the quotes you posted. Jung's definition of personality is too either/or for me. Either a person is an individual or a slave to the environment. I would say that we are both. Sometimes we are in charge and sometimes we serve.

His view of consciousness is too intellectual for my personal taste. It seems to be the servant of the intellect, which is correct for the intellectual, but not for everyone. I follow the Eastern definition. They have specialized in the study of consciousness for a long time.

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Post by JamesN. »

Roncooper wrote:James,

Thanks for the link to Jung's lexicon. I think I will spend a long time there.

I read the quotes you posted. Jung's definition of personality is too either/or for me. Either a person is an individual or a slave to the environment. I would say that we are both. Sometimes we are in charge and sometimes we serve.

His view of consciousness is too intellectual for my personal taste. It seems to be the servant of the intellect, which is correct for the intellectual, but not for everyone. I follow the Eastern definition. They have specialized in the study of consciousness for a long time.

Ron if I'm not mistaken this brings us back to where we left off when we considered clarification concerning Jung. My thoughts are still the same here; ( but each to his own ).
Hey Ron; I may have to disagree with your use of the word " personality " in this particular case. I think I get your meaning and I like parts of the idea you are using; but this IMHO is definitely " Jungian " territory. Cindy would be more qualified on this than I am; but to me the term " consciousness " has to do more with ( awareness or illumination than expression ) as far as the " mindset " is concerned. You are now dealing with the interplay between the ego, self, subconscious, and the " good ole persona "; if you know what I mean; much less " organ dialogue ". Just saying here; you know. Wink I do think however that Joseph was all about gaining ( revelations ) from new " comparative " insights. That I believe is what he was trying to convey with the references you are using. I realize you are not trying to " re-invent the wheel "; but since this is a ( cafe' ) " contemplation " perhaps I am not understanding you clearly enough. ) Confused
I would add however; since Cindy's addition my understanding of expression may have to be altered somewhat. ( Still cogitating on that one. ) :P
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Post by Cindy B. »

Hey, guys.

So you know, James is right about my reason for sharing the article.

So you also know, I've not devoted much study to the content and practices of traditional Eastern spiritualities because my main interest has always been in the mind, both psychology and philosophy of mind, and its functioning and expressions. For me, at bottom all this boils down to human psychology and brain functioning, and I'm Western through and through. ;) So while I can't offer substantial discussion when it comes to interpretive comparisons of concepts, e.g., Jungian Self and Atman, I could at least direct you to readings if that might help in some way...if my bookmarked links still work.

I just want to mention, too, that the Jung Lexicon is not the place to begin a study of Jungian psychology. (Sorry, James and Ron.) One must have a basic understanding of Jungian concepts and terminology beforehand to make use of the Lexicon. Instead I suggest first reading our Jung in the Weeds threads and the books I mention there for those new to Analytical Psychology.

Adios, amigos! :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Roncooper »

Campbell said we need a world mythology and so I have been looking for insights from all corners of the planet.

It seems to me that the West excels in intellectual pursuits, great art, understanding the need for a code of honor, and the path of love found in the new testament. The East has Taoist philosophy, the paths of consciousness, and nonattachment to name a few.

I think a world mythology should take the best from all the world.

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy:
I just want to mention, too, that the Jung Lexicon is not the place to begin a study of Jungian psychology. (Sorry, James and Ron.) One must have a basic understanding of Jungian concepts and terminology beforehand to make use of the Lexicon. Instead I suggest first reading our Jung in the Weeds threads and the books I mention there for those new to Analytical Psychology.
Hey everyone; my apologies if I gave that impression for it was certainly not my intent. I'm still struggling through this material like everyone else; ( in the " Weeds " as the title suggests. :P ) Seriously though Cindy might have some extra suggestions for anyone who is interested. Jung's: " Memories, Dreams, and Reflections " is one she has mentioned in the past that has been very helpful for me. :) Threads first though; right Cindy?


Ron:
I think a world mythology should take the best from all the world.
I'm pretty sure Joe would agree with you there; he was certainly all about that. :wink:
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Post by Cindy B. »

Yes, James, I do suggest "threads first" and/or the books I mention there. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:Yes, James, I do suggest "threads first" and/or the books I mention there. :)
Speaking of which; ( I have a date with a " Shadow " topic there. Back to school; more reading to do. )

Thank you so much for all the help.

Ciao :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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