The Art of Discourse II

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Evinnra wrote:
cyber-bro wrote:I can give you an example ... imagine someone posts a famous quote, you answer saying where you agree and disagree with the quote. The original person suggests that you should tell deceased author of the quote.

How would you respond.
Cyber-bro,
I really don't know what to say. You do know that conversation etiquette is different in different cultures and that is what makes it so hard for people from different cultures to communicate. Words can be translated, meaning behind those words need to be felt somehow. On the end, patient people usually get somewhere. :wink:
Fair enough ... but I suspect if Cyber-bro did that to Cyber Sis, Cyber-bro's ears would still be ringing. :)
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote: The author's sense or your sense?
In this case they are one and the same.
Clemsy wrote: Hamilton College's Seventh Deadly Sin of Writing is all that quote brings to mind.
:shock: Surely not all of them.
Clemsy wrote: There's a certain amount of ego involved in not giving a damn.
I would not be me without my ego ... there's also a certain amount of ego in trying to be perfect.

Just going back to some of those pet peeves ... I will use "data" as a singular with gay abandon, while some others have no problem with "to boldly split infinitives that no man has split before". I must admit, I vainly and in vain try to write intelligibly and appreciate others who make an effort.

I'll always remember landing for the first time in Canada when the stewardess said, "We'll be landing and deplaning momentarily." First I had this vision of deboning chicken and deplaning passengers. The next thought that came through my mind was "momentarily?" Will they have time to get the luggage off the plane?

The NA misuse of "alternate" is another pet peeve. After years of being hammered by my English teachers on the differences between alternate and alternative, there appears to be a whole continent where it does not matter.

A love of beautiful prose is, I suspect, akin to bower birds adorning their nests with bits of shiny foil. But that's OK. :)
Last edited by romansh on Fri May 21, 2010 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

romansh wrote:
Evinnra wrote:
cyber-bro wrote:I can give you an example ... imagine someone posts a famous quote, you answer saying where you agree and disagree with the quote. The original person suggests that you should tell deceased author of the quote.

How would you respond.
Cyber-bro,
I really don't know what to say. You do know that conversation etiquette is different in different cultures and that is what makes it so hard for people from different cultures to communicate. Words can be translated, meaning behind those words need to be felt somehow. On the end, patient people usually get somewhere. :wink:
Fair enough ... but I suspect if Cyber-bro did that to Cyber Sis, Cyber-bro's ears would still be ringing. :)
I'd NEVER hit you cyber-bro, I am smarter than that. :lol:

Still, if someone handled me this way, first I would try to figure what I've said to provoke such response. There is always time for a bit of self-reflection as far as I recon, and if not, I would try to play it safe by avoiding to take offence. It takes only a few seconds to make someone into an enemy, it takes much longer to make a friend, no?

Clemsy,

About tortured syntax, what should one do if one's writing always turns out looking tortured for the native English speaker? I figured, reading lots of well written material helps - I for instance pick Richard Tarnas's book to get my expression in order. Any other useful tips?
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Ev ... what you mean is you would not leave any visible marks ... :roll:

I can contemplate how and why someone might reply is such a way ... again fair enough. You did not say though, that person who made those remarks should also take a (not a) little time as to why he or she posts in such a way?

Just curious why is it your Cyber-bro that needs to do the reflecting?

:ringing-ears: smiley

ps your syntax is clear
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Post by Clemsy »

About tortured syntax, what should one do if one's writing always turns out looking tortured for the native English speaker? I figured, reading lots of well written material helps - I for instance pick Richard Tarnas's book to get my expression in order. Any other useful tips?
Thanks for asking, Evinnra. The best answer is practice, practice, practice. Run one's stuff past someone proficient in the language. Read Strunk and White's Elements of Style, probably the most concise, and easily readable English grammar book. If one's spoken English is proficient, read the writing out loud. Errors glare like neon.

I know English is a second language for you. Personally, I wouldn't know that if you hadn't told me. :)

When Martin and I started here in '02, he struggled quite a bit. It was really interesting watching him improve over time, and participating here was probably significant in that improvement.

Cheers,
Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Clemsy wrote:
The author's sense or your sense?
In this case they are one and the same.
Maybe. I'm not convinced.
Clemsy wrote:
Hamilton College's Seventh Deadly Sin of Writing is all that quote brings to mind.
Surely not all of them.
Let's see... bloated diction, inflated, imprecise words, general sloppiness. Those certainly. Probably five others if I took the TIME to do an analysis... :P

To be perfectly clear, no one here is talking about 'perfection' or 'beautiful prose.' I'm talking about clarity. I don't really care about perfect writing. I care about meaning, and that takes care and effort. There is a threshold of error, however, beyond which meaning can be anybody's guess. The reason I came here to begin with is because I enjoy writing and, even more, I enjoy refining my thinking through writing: In order to write clearly you have to think clearly. Not that sloppy writing is necessarily the product of sloppy thinking. Clear writing is the product of clear thinking. Whether or not the thoughts behind sloppy composition is clear is unknowable.

How can a conversation be of a 'higher order' nature if meaning is ambiguous? In a text medium, some concern for the conventions have to be followed. No one cares about errors that don't hinder meaning.

We once had a learning disabled associate who posted regularly. His writing had all the earmarks. But, because he cared, his meaning was crystal clear most of the time.
Last edited by Clemsy on Sat May 22, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Clemsy,

On the subject getting your meaning clear...

Well, there are certain concepts which are crystal clear to oneself, but very difficult to convey in prose. When one tries to do so, there are two types of reactions. One is a very polite sort of questioning which will help the original poster to hone his prose and clarify his ideas. The second is a retort, assuming the poster meant something: it may be polite, but I have found offensive ones too.

In my opinion, to qualify as a higher order conversation, there must be an active effort on part of all posters to understand what a person is saying before reacting: then only genuine "conversation" will happen. And when posting, one should try as much as possible to leave one's emotions outside the door.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Clemsy wrote:
Quote:
In this case they are one and the same.
Maybe. I'm not convinced.
It was me but with the intent of mimicking the style of "the bloated gobbledygook."
Clemsy wrote:
Let's see... bloated diction, inflated, imprecise words, general sloppiness. Those certainly. Probably five others if I took the to do an analysis...
just to be curious how would an English teacher have written this
Quote:
The ego's eloquence is an illusion of the mind's duality.

OK 'perfection' was stretching what you said - more than somewhat.
'Conversations of a higher order,' while I personally aim for this lofty goal, I cannot help but think my ego is married to this ideal. I really love my ego - I do.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

romansh wrote:Ev ... what you mean is you would not leave any visible marks ... :roll:

I can contemplate how and why someone might reply is such a way ... again fair enough. You did not say though, that person who made those remarks should also take a (not a) little time as to why he or she posts in such a way?

Just curious why is it your Cyber-bro that needs to do the reflecting?

:ringing-ears: smiley

ps your syntax is clear

Now you making up stories, cyber-bro, just like naughty brothers do to get their sister into trouble. :roll: :lol:

If I were reduced to use physical violence, there would be marks, I can promise you that much .... :wink:

Why is it that I ask you to be more patient and reflective is because .... ( *still thinking* ) :lol:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

Clemsy wrote:
About tortured syntax, what should one do if one's writing always turns out looking tortured for the native English speaker? I figured, reading lots of well written material helps - I for instance pick Richard Tarnas's book to get my expression in order. Any other useful tips?
Thanks for asking, Evinnra. The best answer is practice, practice, practice. Run one's stuff past someone proficient in the language. Read Strunk and White's Elements of Style, probably the most concise, and easily readable English grammar book. If one's spoken English is proficient, read the writing out loud. Errors glare like neon.
I know English is a second language for you. Personally, I wouldn't know that if you hadn't told me. :)
That is a good tip, Clemsy, it might even help my English pronounciation. Thanks! :)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Evinnra wrote: Why is it that I ask you to be more patient and reflective is because .... ( *still thinking* ) :lol:
I know the answer to this one ... my question is why you don't ask my correspondent to be more patient and reflective?

Your naughty Cyber-bro
Last edited by romansh on Sat May 22, 2010 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Clemsy »

Clemsy wrote:
Let's see... bloated diction, inflated, imprecise words, general sloppiness. Those certainly. Probably five others if I took the to do an analysis...
just to be curious how would an English teacher have written this
Ha! No doubt a perfect English teacher would never make mistakes. But then, since the universe cannot contain such perfection, said teacher would translate out of existence, leaving just us plain old flawed English teachers to go back and fix their mistakes before Sister Regina shows up with her metal edged ruler. :shock:

Picky, picky. :?
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

nandu wrote:Clemsy,

On the subject getting your meaning clear...

Well, there are certain concepts which are crystal clear to oneself, but very difficult to convey in prose. When one tries to do so, there are two types of reactions. One is a very polite sort of questioning which will help the original poster to hone his prose and clarify his ideas. The second is a retort, assuming the poster meant something: it may be polite, but I have found offensive ones too.

Nandu.
Yes! I sit back and watch that happen all the time. This is the whole point! As I've said in both these discourse threads time and again, we have to be aware of the absence of nonverbal cues which carry a lot of information. We add inflection when we read, sometimes inaccurately. We project our own experience and connections onto another's words. We construct homunculi, 'little people', in our heads of who our fellow associates are. These are always inaccurate to some degree.

That we have a clue as to what anyone means is nothing short of miraculous, if you think about it.

In a higher order conversation, one is always checking for meaning, and self-monitoring one's personal reactions.

As you said.
In my opinion, to qualify as a higher order conversation, there must be an active effort on part of all posters to understand what a person is saying before reacting: then only genuine "conversation" will happen. And when posting, one should try as much as possible to leave one's emotions outside the door.


Yes, yes, yes.
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Post by Clemsy »

Evinnra,

I always tell my students to read out loud when proofreading, if I can get them to care enough. I love it when a kid is reading their stuff aloud in class, suddenly stop, scrunch their eyebrows together and say, "Wait."

Embarrassing when one runs headlong into one of the Seven Deadly Sins of Writing publicly. :lol:
Last edited by Clemsy on Sun May 23, 2010 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Just an aside, another pet peeve of mine is "in order" usually followed by "to" or "for" is an unneccessary phrase in the vast majority cases.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

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