Here I reproduce what I thought of as relevant and some commentary:
Here is the original clarificationand all life violates the second law of thermodynamics when it grows and becomes orderly.
I did not disagree with you here, In fact there is no violation here.non-isolated systems may lose entropy, provided they increase their environment's entropy by that increment.
Living things can and do lose entropy.
At which point I clarified my point.
You continually make the following point:rom wrote:At which point you suggest I have claimed that thermodynamics disproves free will. When in fact all I have claimed is that it is evidence of cause and effect.
To which I ask are not energy differences cause (and as are activation energies? I don't recall an answer here. May be you can show me one or actually respond to my point?If there was a law of conservation of cause and effect
You then say:
Here I agree, you describe the first law. I have no problem here. But if you are suggesting we have a cause that keeps on causing then I would also agree I don't believe in perpetual motion machines. The second law describes how the ability to do work as we approach equilibrium diminishes. Nevertheless the second law of thermodynamics describes cause and effect.Let me explain. The conservation of energy law states that energy is conserved and there cannot be any sources of new energy. An empty room at thermal equilibrium obeys the law, but if a living thing brings a heater into the room, then the law is locally violated.
It is in this sense that I am talking about a source of causes.
You then repeat:
Which is true if we look at the bits we only wish to look at. If we look at the whole system, this is plainly not true.Living system can reduce entropy.
This I see as simply colloquial language. I think you understand; literally energy does not get consumed. Just the ability to do "useful" work does.The first one against free will is based on energy and the laws that explain how it works. This argument fails because we consume energy when we think. Decisions burn calories.
And to your last post:
And yet engineers and chemists can work out how much energy is required in an open system. I would agree when you and I went to school it was taught that way. As I pointed out before ... thermodynamics (second law) applies to when we pump in energy to a lead acid battery to recharge it.The second law of thermodynamics assumes that there is no energy source within the closed system.
A living thing brings in energy from outside and can become more orderly in this way.
Taking this second statement together with the first, my intellect tells me that me that at very best we could say is that the second law of thermodynamics does not apply to life and not that life violates the law.