Fairy Tales are valid classical myth and help self discovery

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gum drop
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Post by gum drop »

She addresses, being heavy, having to give up a child, being thwarted by her family for it...not being understood by the collective governing females held in esteem, whom often have no mercy only contempt yet are regarded as the ultimate female...she values people for other things beyond a traditionally schooled background...she understand single motherhood, went back to school later in life, comes from a family as an adopted daughter with a catlike mother. Her family was massacred by Stalin and then regrouped. She is still looking for her twin. She had a Catholic background and has revived the mother figure and understood some of the underground symbolic meanings kept alive in that tradition.

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

A lot of your above reply sounds like the stories of my great-grandma - minus Stalin...of course <<insert "Amish" or German Baptist for Stalin - kinda >> :?
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

nandu
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Post by nandu »

I am halfway through The Women Who Run With Wolves and I have started to get what Ms. Estes is attempting. She is analysing only those tales which have relevance to the "Wild Woman" archetype which she sees as the true nature of all women: so many significant fairy tales with female protagonists are ignored.

Even though I get where she's coming from, I believe that an analysis of all fairy tales involving female protagonists would have been more effective.

BTW, Cindy, whenever she compares the "Wild Woman Nature" to the wolf nature, I can't resist imagining you in my mind as a "Wolf Woman" - given your relationship with them!
:wink: :lol:

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

nandu wrote:BTW, Cindy, whenever she compares the "Wild Woman Nature" to the wolf nature, I can't resist imagining you in my mind as a "Wolf Woman" - given your relationship with them! :wink: :lol:
Excellent point, Nandu, and something that I was going to mention, too. 8) Sorry that it's taken me so long to get back to this thread.

The main message that I, anyway, take away from Pinkola Estes's book is the importance of reclaiming and nurturing one's instinctual nature to become whom one is meant to be which, in the Jungian scheme of things, arises from the archetypal Self that's inclusive of all archetypes. The wild woman archetype in its positive expression exemplifies this message nicely, I think, as Pinkola Estes presented it. Yet remember my saying about her book that "for the most part I like it"? The qualifier is nothing major, just that I have a different subjective experience of the wolf image and its expression in my life, and so, then, various characteristics of the social interactions among wolves as a model for relationships would not have been the first thing to pop up in my mind. ;) Yet her perspective is useful to me and instructive, in that while listening to her (reading), along the way I have to consciously process the Jungian experience of "standing judgingly between the opposites" and give credence to both positive and negative implications of the wolf. Pinkola Estes does a great job elucidating the wolf in its positive aspects, and hers is a perspective that I'm glad to have come across. My own early experiences with the Little Red Ridinghood-type wolf will always be foundational for me, so to speak, but in any archetypal image there's always more to be seen and understood that can be meaningful and useful, and this is a good example of that. (No doubt Pinkola Estes is equally aware of the negative expressions of the wild woman and the wolf, too, but that would be for a different sort of book.)

Can you list down some [tales] which are significant for you?. . . As a psychotherapist, and as a person. Only if you don't mind sharing. :D
Those fairy tales that most resonated with me as a child all relate in some way to my parents's divorce and my father's subsequent abandonment at age 3. And because once upon a time in a forum far, far away, I shared a personal comment about an archetypal situation raised on the board that someone close to me read and was not particularly happy about, I will cover my virtual butt just in case, and not invite another misunderstanding and go through that one again by citing more tales. If only everyone could think "Jungian," but, alas... :P

As for fairy tales in clinical practice, time and opportunity for depth analysis of this sort would be a luxury indeed for the counseling psychologist in my state who works in the community mental health system. ;)


:)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Mon May 27, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

nandu
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Post by nandu »

That's unfortunate, Cindy, I was hoping for some inputs from you. Anyway, be happy! :D

Hope you will not refrain from sharing some general insights, whenever time permits. 8)

Nandu.
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The Fish Prince

Post by Cindy B. »

Remember, Nandu, my mentioning to you elsewhere that I'd given some time to checking out Indian fairy tales? Well, here's one that I'd like to ask you about. As I read through tales available online, I kept coming back to this one since it seemed appropriate for children and one that I would've shared with my girls when little had I been familiar with it: The Fish Prince.

Along the way I checked into several Hindu elements that were unfamiliar to me, so before I ask my question, I'll mention these two bits of information about Vishnu: Matsya and Shesha. Maya as mentioned in the tale I was already familiar with, of course.

So my question is this: Why might it be that in the fairy tale, the Fish Prince who rapidly outgrows his bowl turns out to be a mortal man rather than a god, i.e., what's the link that I'm missing here in terms of an Indian interpretation of this tale and its main message as you understand it? And thanks.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

nandu
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Post by nandu »

Cindy,

I am not familiar with this tale. It seems to be North Indian. However, it seems to be a variant of the Matsya Avatara ("Fish Incarnation") of Lord Vishnu, the first one of the ten in which he repeatedly incarnates himself to save the world. In that tale, Vishnu grows much faster than the Fish Prince, and saves the chosen few at the deluge at the end of the world.

It is interesting to note that the incarnations of Vishnu proceed from the lower life forms to higher - a sort of evolution of God. :wink: Fish - Tortoise - Boar - Half-man, half-lion (the Narasimha) - Dwarf... etc. Maybe the fish is an archetype of the primordial waters residing in our psyches? The reptile, which is a staple of all Indian myths and tales, I already consider as a representation of the reptile brain.

More later. I have to think about this.:D

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

Maurice Sendak's 85th Birthday Celebrated With A Google Doodle
The Huffington Post | By Alexis Kleinman

The animated drawing is an adorable, detailed rotating animation of scenes from Sendak's books, starting with his most famous, "Where The Wild Things Are." You can watch Max and his monster friends enjoy a "wild rumpus" before the Doodle moves on to “In the Night Kitchen," where bakers trot through a sweet world of cooking supplies. The animation closes with a tribute to one of Sendak's last books, “Bumble-Ardy,” a story about a little pig who throws himself a birthday party.

Sendak's popularity came, at least in part, because he respected children's intelligence and imagination. “You cannot write for children. They're much too complicated," he said. "You can only write books that are of interest to them.”
Maurice Sendak Google Doodle with music [HD]
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

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Post by Clemsy »

I'll def chack that out when I have the time, Al, but if you have't listened to his last interview with Terri Gross, get the tissues handy. This will pierce your heart.

http://www.openculture.com/2013/01/maur ... mated.html
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

In the beginning of the Moyers interview - Bill talks about Campbell's impression of a scene in the book - Where the Wild Things Are 8)
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

Art has always been my salvation. ~Maurice Sendak
...awesome!!
Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.
~Max Planck

ALOberhoulser
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Post by ALOberhoulser »

Death is not the end

This is the tale I was told as a lad after my father died in an automobile accident - thoughts?

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

ALOberhoulser wrote:Death is not the end

This is the tale I was told as a lad after my father died in an automobile accident - thoughts?
I'm genuinely sorry for your loss, Al, and I agree that Dylan's words are comforting ones, but this is not a fairy tale.

This thread created by James would be a good fit if you and others would like to discuss it further: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4899 Thanks.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by nandu »

I finished Women Who Run With The Wolves. Even though I do not agree with all of Dr. Estes's interpretations, this book is a significant work on fairy tales. I shall soon be putting up a review on Goodreads.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

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