Fairy Tales are valid classical myth and help self discovery

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Clemsy wrote:How many great stories start with a prophecy that the father figure (king) makes sure comes true by trying to avoid it?
I cannot remember offhand, but Oedipus makes the prophecy about himself come true by trying to avoid it. :)

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

I do not know whether it is serendipity or synchronicity, but I am currently reading Lavondyss by Robert Holdstock. It is the sequel to Mythago Wood, which I read way back in 1987 or 88. At that time, I was not introduced to Jung or Campbell so I did not enjoy the story that much: it left me confused.

The themes in these cycle of stories are very much related to fairy tales and parallel the themes discussed here to a great extent. 8)

Britain (and Europe in general) seems to have a type of mythology which I have termed "arboreal" - it seems so much related to their beautiful countryside and woodland. So also their fairy tales. Since I come from a similar geography (albeit tropical), I find that can relate to these stories.

I would recommend the above books to anybody interested in fairy tales, myth and fantasy.

Nandu.
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Post by Clemsy »

nandu wrote:
Clemsy wrote:How many great stories start with a prophecy that the father figure (king) makes sure comes true by trying to avoid it?
I cannot remember offhand, but Oedipus makes the prophecy about himself come true by trying to avoid it. :)

Nandu.
That story starts with a prophecy to the father that his son would kill him. Then Oedipus tries to avoid killing his father as the Oracle told him he would.

I wonder where Shakespeare got his material. lol!
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

nandu
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Post by nandu »

More on Baba Yaga. The descriptions are so graphical that I started cartooning it in my mind. :D

From the link:
...Although she is mostly portrayed as a terrifying old crone, Baba Yaga can also play the role of a helper and wise woman. The Earth Mother, like all forces of nature, though often wild and untamed, can also be kind.

In her guise as wise hag, she sometimes gives advice and magical gifts to heroes and the pure of heart. The hero or heroine of the story often enters the crone's domain searching for wisdom, knowledge and truth. She is all-knowing, all seeing and all-revealing to those who would dare to ask.

She is said to be a guardian spirit of the fountain of the Waters of Life and of Death.

Baba Yaga is the Arch-Crone, the Goddess of Wisdom and Death, the Bone Mother. Wild and untamable, she is a nature spirit bringing wisdom and death of ego, and through death, rebirth.
Baba Yaga points to the (IMO) feminine root of all mystery. She is not much different from many of the terrifying forms of the Goddess available in India.

One thing to note is that she is neither good nor evil: only incredibly powerful and terrifying, and somewhat idiosyncratic. She will help, if it suits her: she can also be fooled by clever human beings.

The separation into "good" and "bad" witches must have come at a much later date.

Nandu.
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Post by sharibanflynn »

From over 20 years of experienceas a clinical psychotherapist working for three consultant psychiatrist with psychiatric outpatients... I consider Anorexia also to be an adverse response to an over baring mother as the child's suppressed rebellion by puking (mother’s) food back.. an attempt to take back self control .. but sure its not a conclusion based upon research.
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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Post by sharibanflynn »

Nandu,
There is a similar figure here in Ireland called Sile na gig.. worth a google
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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Post by Cindy B. »

sharibanflynn wrote:From over 20 years of experienceas a clinical psychotherapist working for three consultant psychiatrist with psychiatric outpatients... I consider Anorexia also to be an adverse response to an over baring mother as the child's suppressed rebellion by puking (mother’s) food back.. an attempt to take back self control .. but sure its not a conclusion based upon research.
This article from the CG Jung Page might interest you: Eating Disorders and Myths. A couple fairy tales are included as well. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

nandu
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Post by nandu »

sharibanflynn wrote:Nandu,
There is a similar figure here in Ireland called Sile na gig.. worth a google
Well... she's interesting. :)

Sile na gig

Image

So-called "lewd" pictures are commonplace on temple walls: sex came to be associated with sin and disgust only after the advent of the Levantine religions, I think. Moreover, genitalia (especially the vagina) is seen as the root of everything sacred in many Eastern mystic traditions (it is worshipped in Tantric tradition - the Yoni Puja). Lord Siva is usually worshipped as a Linga (phallus), sitting in a Yoni (vagina).

Image

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

I am currently reading Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes - a feminist look at fairy tales. I must confess that I am not very impressed. Cindy? Shariban? Have you seen it?

Nandu.
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Hi! Nandu,
I have come across a lot of people who have read the book you speak of - mainly women. I am no longer reading post-Jungian material as (at the age of 70!) have now found my way, even arrived, albeit, this still involves life's common struggle and the working out of ones ancestral lot. (alas for the thousands who have gone before me and who's genes I carry!)
I have concluded Jung brings you to the point of suspension between ...and the holding of both opposites within.. so to speak.. I acknowledge the power of the archetypes and am aware that I too am under the inevitable influence of same..
The power of the fairy tale offers, for me, an insight into some of this universal pattern (in this case) the daughter undergoing growth, or from a wider interpretation, the striving of any individual for balance of the undeveloped feminine energy within.
Likewise, I also did a (Jungian) analysis the tale of Jack and the Bean Stalk mapping the pattern we males have to embrace to reach manhood. Similarly, such a tale has wider issues for the whole of mankind. The Hero-Heroine journey is the journey of child prompting by the dominant archetype of the goddess Hera - (Hercules)..relationship.. Mothers are 'caught' in this as much as their children.

So the task before me is what lies beyond 'belief' ... beyond the personal subjective... beyond the opposites ...But Sure! Happy journey ! :)
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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Post by Cindy B. »

I'll try to get back to this thread tomorrow, Nandu, well, later today if I can. I just got back into town and in a few hours have one more short trip to make, so after a decent nap, I hope to be up for a chat. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

nandu wrote:I am currently reading Women Who Run With the Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes - a feminist look at fairy tales. I must confess that I am not very impressed. Cindy? Shariban? Have you seen it?

Nandu.
I have read this book, Nandu, and for the most part I like it since the point of view and orientation are decidedly female when it comes to the life journeys of woman and girls. In contrast, what has typically been available to women is a feminization, so to speak, of the male-oriented, masculine hero's journey which is not always nor necessarily a good fit for the female experience. Pinkola Estes puts "the female" back into "the feminine"...in my opinion, of course.

:)


P.S. Next on my list of creative writing projects is a feminist version of the Bluebeard-type fairy tale. I've done all the associated research I need (I've looked into such tales across cultures and in some way or other will pay homage to them.) and have the relevant characters and scenarios established, so now I simply need to write the tale. ("Simply?" Please pass that on to my creative muse who seems to have been on a looong vacation. :P) In my tale the main character will not be rescued by males (the animus) as is typical in such tales but dealt with via the feminine psyche. The masculine helper in my tale will be represented by the behavior of a cat which is typically conceived as a feminine element in tales rather than masculine. If I ever get this tale written, I'll share it with you.
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sun May 19, 2013 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by gum drop »

I read the Estes book when it came out and again recently....upon finding out I have had many of the same experiences as she...it is a true gift of understanding..Listen to her tapes she is a keeper of the old stories.

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Post by nandu »

I have a problem with Estes when she makes The Ugly Duckling feminist - it is not a true fairy tale. It was written by Hans Christian Andersen, and I do not think he intended any feminist agenda.

And Estes not touched many fairy tales like Little Red Riding Hood or Sleeping Beauty, which do have a relevance to the feminine psyche, IMO.

Nandu.
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

That's the point, though, Nandu, the offering of an interpretation from an alternate female point of view. In my opinion, anyway, there's no right or wrong interpetation of such tales, just another variation to be considered. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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