Fairy Tales are valid classical myth and help self discovery

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sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

There are a lot of complex questions you put and with weight too. Here is an answer to some:
yes it is a trait to be persued is indeed feminine and as an oposit concept to this story we have the likes of Lorna Doon connected to the main players around the archetype Aphrodity - father persuing her daughter eloping with her lover..and the inevitable death of daughter - father unable to let go = the future bride is psychologicaly unable to replace the father image with her lover/husband to be.. so the transference does not take place.

Jung made mention of the dwarfs who dig in the depths for special gifts- the psyche finding the unknown within where the anamus goes a digging and the dwarfs are likened to the penis 'the tom thumb' but the reference I can no longer recall...could go looking if you are very interested- to push the notion of rape...
To persue the notion of how the patient copes .. initially it is painful to realise ones lot..
so the Ego is not overwhelmed initially :-
Stage one of the developing Ego:
Uniformity starts to emerge when we read how the queen died at the birth of her child and with her death we have the first mention of her husband, '..the king took another wife'(Grimm 1984:188): But this is the only mention of Snow Whites' father. The indolent father figure might as well not exist for all the good he did, so too with ‘Cinderella’ and perhaps ‘Little Red Riding Hood’. The latter does not seem to have had a father at all! Common to all these tales is the fact that the negative aspect of the masculine (indolent/absent father) cannot be integrated and this can result in a denial of the masculine as..’These maidens are always doomed to die, because their exclusive domination of the feminine psyche hinders the individuation process, that is, the maturation of personality '(Jung and Kerényi 1989:172).
The 'absent one' in a persons life or the one avoided mentioned in the analysand usually has an enormous contribution to make. Our hero starts out with an almost non-existent father figure or 'Animus’ and at this stage equivalent to not knowing her natural mother. This state of the psyche is tragic as it lacks both the caring mother and father image. Her father cannot stand up for her and continues ‘doing nothing’ throughout the story (her life) even though she is subject to four attempts of murder. He doesn’t offer any suggestions, guidance or even attempts to control the raging forces within his new wife/queen. He does nothing against the raging opposite. The counter balance to the weak Animus is an inflated negative feminine 'shadow' which ‛... is totally unconscious....and... seems to possess a peculiar wisdom of its own...'(Jung1981:233f) in the form of the step mother. Taking all this as an integral part of Snow White’s psychic condition, the whole story seems to be about Snow White eventually finding her prince within, the tenth male figure, before she is able to face and tame her rage.
The Ego although ‘..an immense accumulation of images of past processes..’ within Snow White is nevertheless infantile in development and also immense (Jung:1960:323:360). This initial state of a person contains all that is needed to develop into an adult, but suffers from a failure of adaptation, compensated by '... an older...regressive reactivation of the parental imagos...' (Jung1995:140). As we discover, there is growth of the primal female in the form of the wicked step-mother queen. So it is not surprising that this dominant ‘shadow’ (ibid.: 208) tries to dislodge the Ego, especially when the shadow itself is married (counterpart) to such a weak Animus. Snow White is in a mess, we can conclude the inevitable 'partial suicide’ is the shadow's way of restricting the existence of Snow White, our hero (Jung and Kerényi 1989:110). If she were a patient at this stage of development, she would appear hysterical, have a terror around freedom and at the same time be dependant on whoever was available. She may well describe her feelings likened to being in a small dark place and hiding away from responsibility and the danger of the wide outside.
The ego began its own development when Snow White was seven years old, and it was then we find terror expressed by our Queenly step-mother. This terror can also accommodate jealousy, a lack of love for the child within, which then becomes hateful and murderous '...she would have been ready to tear her heart out of her body'(Grimm 1984:189).
Jung C,G. The Collected Works. Vol' ‘9 pt 11. ‘Aion’ 1981. Routledge , London.
Jung C,G. The Collected Works..Vol’ 8. ‘The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche ‘1960 Routledge London .
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

A J
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Post by A J »

Maureen Murdock's The Heroine's Journey is an interesting source for the differences between the masculine and feminine quest. She points out the need for a mother/daughter split before the heroine can find "the inner Man with Heart."

Carol Pearson's The Hero Within relates the importance of six archetypes in our developing lives: The Innocent, The Orphan, The Wanderer, The Warrior, The Martyr, and The Magician. They seem to have some similarities to your six "universal principles of maidenhood." The innocence of early childhood must die if the child is to progress, and so, s/he becomes "orphaned" in one way or another, learning that parents cannot be counted on for support, so s/he enters a period of wandering (through the forest?). Pearson says that, while men usually develop the Warrior first and the Martyr later, the pattern is often reversed for women, with the roles often reversing around mid-life. The final stage, the Magician, is a return to innocence, like Eliot's "Little Gidding" conclusion in Four Quartets:" We shall not cease from exploration/And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started/And know the place for the first time."

I've always been fascinated by the Snow White tale. Thanks for your enlightening comments.

AJ
"Sacred space and sacred time and something joyous to do is all we need. Almost anything then becomes a continuous and increasing joy."

A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Thankyou AJ - encouraging remarks - The tale continues with 3 more developmental processes I identified (and do forgive my typo's as I am dyslexic, but sure! coping eerr copeing!)
Will persue the Tale soon enough
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

to push the notion further of application of the fairy tale to 'normal' human developement echo'es still in modern life....
Stage two of the developing Ego: vis Snow White
This involves the first glimmer of awareness on the part of Snow White. She is considered a threat by the shadow figure in her psyche- presented in the story as the wicked step-mother. So the first state of male awareness emerges too- the Woodman who will do no harm, but will not protect either. This is a transit stage for Snow White as she finds herself wondering in the wilderness of the wood abandoned by adults. It is also the first time Snow White has to initiate something: find her way to safely and negotiate to remain alive.
The shadow within, our new usurper Queen and has hired a killer. Thus, enters the second male figure. He is not as violent as the first, her father who is significantly absent, at least the Woodcutter does do something: he refuses to harm her, but also fails to protect her, letting her go into unknown danger in the woods and hoping she will never return. At least he deceives the Shadow figure (the usurper queen) by taking back the heart of a deer as a pretense.

The Ego at this stage is under the spell of unknown forces within and is restricted in freedom ’ ...being alienated from normal life’ (Jung1960: 311) where she continues hiding in the woods.

All the masculine force of the father in Snow White are mesmerised by the attributes of beauty in his new wife masking the evil content which harbor no warmth of feeling. A beautiful woman must be a good person! We are told the shadow queen '..could not endure that anyone should surpass her in beauty' (Grimm 1984:188)., And of course, she had the magic mirror. It was magic because the queen is herself only a reflection and what she saw ‘in’ the mirror was the real self looking back, but the reality was actually the other way round. This is indeed a symbol of one aspect of feminine beauty. Jung says of such a woman that they have '..artistry in illusion being a specifically feminine talent.. However, it seems if a woman remains '...content to be a femme a' home, she has no feminine individuality. She is empty and merely glitters-a welcome vessel for masculine projection. (Jung and Kereyi 1989:172-3). The mirror told the queen she was no longer the best. The first emotion '...the queen was terrified' (Grimm 1984:189). A rather interesting feeling terrified when we consider it is only competitive beauty that is at stake. Her beauty is also about control because if she ceases to mesmerise her man he would 'see though her' and all would be lost.
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

Persephonespring
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Post by Persephonespring »

I know this thread is old, however I am in a long running Jungian fairy tale group and find that the tales offer wisdom that is useful today, as it was hundreds of years ago.

Albert Einstein said, "if you want to have intelligent children, read them fairy tales and if you want to have very intelligent children, read them more fairy tales".

Jan
Might be a drop in a bucket, but, as I like to say, no drops, no ocean. :-) Clemsy

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

At least I am not alone and have two elaborate Jungian analyses of fairytales, taken from the original by brothers Grimm, knowing the value of what you have stated- the notion of active imagination is vital for personal and scientific development as the 'idea' is just that... an act of active imagination and to push the notion further ' theory' is nothing but that. Good on ya !
I use the same technique in Therapy Jung calls the Transendent Function' has results - or what ya DO with what ya know is what realy matters. Saves lives it does!
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

Persephonespring
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Post by Persephonespring »

sharibanflynn wrote:At least I am not alone and have two elaborate Jungian analyses of fairytales, taken from the original by brothers Grimm, knowing the value of what you have stated- the notion of active imagination is vital for personal and scientific development as the 'idea' is just that... an act of active imagination and to push the notion further ' theory' is nothing but that. Good on ya !
I use the same technique in Therapy Jung calls the Transendent Function' has results - or what ya DO with what ya know is what realy matters. Saves lives it does!
So many cultures speak to this: "We have the ability to imagine or use thinking mind as a way to awaken, but also we can use our imagination in so many different directions; there are infinite possibilities with the imagination.

When we can begin to cherish and use our mind and imagination skillfully, we can learn to navigate the world in ways that work for us and bring us to a better state. In other words, the imagination can bring us to the depths of hell, but the imagination can help us find a resting place in bodhichitta as well.".

Elizabeth Mattis Namgyel


Jan
Might be a drop in a bucket, but, as I like to say, no drops, no ocean. :-) Clemsy

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Since this topic is back on the radar, for any interested, here's an example of a basic Jungian interpretation of Little Red Ridinghood: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 3492#53492

And here are variations of the Little Red Ridinghood tale: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by nandu »

Cindy B. wrote:The theme of “Little Red Ridinghood” tales is one of initiation for Little Red-as-ego from within a state of naive innocence (child archetype) into experiencing and learning to recognize the predatory dangers (shadow archetype: wolf, ogre, werewolf) that exist in the world, both inner and outer. Her initiation begins when her mother (mother archetype) recognizes that the time is right to send her off alone on a jouney (individuation process) to the home of her grandmother (crone archetype) who happens to live in the woods (the unconscious). In some stories the grandmother also expresses the wise old woman archetype who takes control of the dangerous situation, while in others she is enfeebled due to age and sickness and unable to help Little Red. In these latter stories a strong masculine figure as a hunter comes to the rescue (helper archetype) to deal with the shadow and protect the innocents. Regardless, however the story ends--whether Little Red is utterly consumed by the shadow, rescued by the helper, or taught by the wise grandmother how to protect herself--the message to the audience of the story is clear: The world can be a dangerous place, so you must learn to keep your eyes and ears opened and come trust your intuition, and be ready to meet the challenge of protecting yourself should the need arise.

So, when reading such a story, the ego is able to identify with each of the characters in some way or other since they’re expressions of archetypal characters common to all. Yet whether the ego identifies most with this character or with that one depends on the press from below, so to speak, from Self that is orchestrating individuation; salient complexes in the personal unconscious will also affect how and what elements of the story the ego processes at the conscious level at any given time. When I was young, for example, I as ego feared being consumed by the wolf; now that I’m older I identify most with the proactive mothers and the hunter. Psychological maturation doesn’t necessarily parallel physical maturation, though, so it would be possible to find adults who identify most with Little Red as a naive child or even as a victim, and at the root of this is fear given troublesome life experiences. Such a person must come to recognize at the conscious level the inherent bravery of the hunter and wisdom of the mothers who are also within, then actively practice and apply those strengths in their everyday lives until they come more easily over time; the result is an ego enhanced in its functioning such that more choices are available when it comes to conscious thinking and behaving, i.e., further individuation. As for those who might invariably identify with the shadow figure, they would be the sociopaths or the psychopaths among us as well as within our own psyches, the reason that we can come to recognize them.
A fine, concise analysis, Cindy. 8)

The "Red Riding Hood" fairy tale is dark, and therefore fascinating for a person like me who is somewhat obsessed with darkness. :twisted:

In these fairy tales, I am always fascinated by "The Woods" which are always near the houses of the protagonists: it is presumably only a step away, but once you get lost there, it is very difficult to come out without some kind of supernatural help, or spending some time in the belly of the whale. In the version of Red Riding Hood which was told me by my grandma, the wolf eats the grandmother and the protagonist; the woodcutter cuts open the wolf's belly and takes them out.

Also, it is interesting how often the wolf appears in European fairy tales. This lunar animal, connected with the moon and silver, would have been a real danger skulking about in the darkness during our arboreal days. Also, IMO all of us (men at least! :wink: ) have a bit of the wolf in them, and would not be averse to finding a nice, juicy girl alone in the forest... in our fantasies, at least! :twisted: It is a story with many layers of meaning, worth exploring again and again.

BTW, have a look at Angela Carter's take on the story ( The Bloody Chamber) and Neil Jordan's brilliant movie based on one of the stories (The Company of Wolves).

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Here's another decent fairy tale website: SurLaLunefairytales.com


As for Little Red Ridinghood, Nandu, I grew up with the same version of the tale that was told to you, and I still have my copy.

Image

I did not share this tale with my girls, though, when they were growing up. It was simply too brutal, and when they were small, I couldn't imagine a sugar-coated reframing of the story for them to wrap their little minds around. This reflects my own experience with the story, of course, and what it aroused in me as a child. For starters, that little girl on the cover very much resembles me when I was young, so I projected all my fears onto her that arose from an unstable early family situation. I was provided with loads of books when I was small but was never read to, so whatever I took away from stories reflected my own interpretation only. One of the dreams that I still recall from my early childhood was derived from elements of this story--isolated cabin in the woods at night, a trio of wolves crashing through the windows, my waking up just before they attack--and to this day I don't like large dogs because of that remnant of fear of the wolf in this story and the resemblance to various dogs. In the neighborhood where I raised my girls were many roaming dogs, and often I had to remind them not to approach the dogs when their owners weren't around "because, girls, you just can't trust that a dog will stay nice while you're playing with him." Yep, the psychological implications are numerous. :wink:

So there you have it--more than you ever wanted to know about Cindy. :P
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Persephonespring »

I am still with my mother, so I don't have access to my library....8(

There is a poet in Colorado who has written several wonderful books of poetry....I met her at our Jung Society program on a fairytale.....Rumpelstiltskin. We invited her to read several of her poems written on fairy tales. Her poem on Little Red Riding Hood was very different and very dark.....she asked the question why a mother would send her small daughter into the wood dressed like meat? Her poem made me rethink the entire tale....its brilliant. The next time I'm home I will find and send the poem.

Jan
Might be a drop in a bucket, but, as I like to say, no drops, no ocean. :-) Clemsy

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Post by Cindy B. »

Hi, Jan, it's nice to hear from you. We're still sending good wishes to you and your mother. :)

Please do share the poem when you can. And I agree that Little Red's mother can be looked at from both sides of the archetype, loving mother and terrible mother.

Take care!
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Persephonespring »

The poet is Lois Beebe Hayna. Her poem is on Little Red Riding Hood. You can download it online if you have a PC. It won't download for me.

She is a wonderful woman, I think in her nineties, she couldn't believe that we were honoring her poetry and her wonderful self.

Jan
Might be a drop in a bucket, but, as I like to say, no drops, no ocean. :-) Clemsy

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Post by Cindy B. »

I'll take a look around the web, Jan, and post the link if I find it. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

Persephonespring wrote:The poet is Lois Beebe Hayna. Her poem is on Little Red Riding Hood. You can download it online if you have a PC. It won't download for me.

She is a wonderful woman, I think in her nineties, she couldn't believe that we were honoring her poetry and her wonderful self.
I had trouble with both download and copy & paste, so since the poem is short, I've reproduced it here.



From http://ebookbrowse.com/red-alert-and-re ... d344573958


Red Alert
by Lois Beebe Hayna

My mother surely knew the wolf
Lurked along that path.
She had to know the world's
Filled with wolves, that their special
Habitat is a forest
Where little girls walk alone.
She dressed me
In the color of raw meat, she filled
My basket with warm-scented goodies
And sent me specifically
Into the woods. A long way
Into the woods. For years I believed
It was wolves that I had to beware.



Cindy wrote:And I agree that Little Red's mother can be looked at from both sides of the archetype, loving mother and terrible mother.

The poem is chilling in its own way, huh.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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