Fairy Tales are valid classical myth and help self discovery

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sharibanflynn
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Fairy Tales are valid classical myth and help self discovery

Post by sharibanflynn »

I argue that the fairy tale has qualities found in classical myth and should be taken more seriously. In both fairy tale and myth there is much to be discovered about ourselves. From this deduction I suggest the whole fairy tale be interpreted as part of any individual person’s psychology. Looked at in this way each figure within the fairy tale impacts on the whole, each turn of events has a cause and effect forming or conforming to patterns that unfold towards a workable unity. I have chosen the fairy tale of Snow White to authenticate the above assertions.

:roll: Any one interested out there?
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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Have you read "The Uses of Enchantment" by Bruno Bettelheim?

Also have look at this site:

http://www.endicott-studio.com/jMA07Spring/index.html

You can also have a look at Angela Carter's modern interpretation of fairy tales.

Nandu.
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

I'd also suggest the many works of Marie-Louise von Franz on fairy tales for any interested.

Cindy
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Post by Clemsy »

Shari, when my oldest son was small, I read to him from Lang's Fairy Books. I was amazed at the themes that repeated from all over the world... very much parallel to myth. The difference being fairy tales come from the 'folk'. But they certainly come from the same place and express archetypes seen in larger myth.

Indeed, when reading these stories, I found several Cinderellas, Snow Whites, etc.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by nandu »

All of Lang's books are available for free download.

http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/l#a79

Nandu.
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sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

you guys are on the ball! so here goes with what I got so far and yes have read some of the above suggestions :
The Opie's tell us that the story of Snow White can be found with little variation all over the world `...from Ireland to Asia Minor and in several parts of North and West Africa.' (Opie & Opie 1980:227). So we are dealing with a fairytale which has a lot of meaning for many people and like myth continues to fascinate.
I feel quite humbled as I continue to realise such simple stories as Snow White continues to hold much contemporary relevance that remains deeply buried within its simplicity. I am prepared to conclude that some fairy stories seem to verge on myth, in that, the more I read about the science of myth, the more I reluctantly conclude that this tale, among others, has all the magnitude of classical mythology.
If this was so, then we might give more weight to these simple tales. Perhaps it is `invented' just to show us something of our selves and perhaps these simple stories are as C. G. Jung considers myth to be, the '..unconscious expressions of ourselves...'(Jung and Kerényi 1989:162).
My difficulty with 'classical myth' is that it was once believed to be true, and was yesteryear religion. Whereas the fairy story was never believed to be so, but then again, in the eyes of a child such stories are considered `true.' Was medieval man more 'child like,' primitive or less differentiated in his belief then modern man and did he give credibility to the fairytale as we now give credibility to religion?

Opie. P & I. The Classic Fairy Tales. 1980 Granada. Oxford.
Jung C, G.& C. Kerényi Essays on a Science of Mythology 1993 Princeton University press USA.
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

shariban,

Here's a web site you might like: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html

And from this website, European versions of Snow White: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0709.html If you have access to non-European stories of this type, I'd be interested in reading them. 8)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by jonsjourney »

My difficulty with 'classical myth' is that it was once believed to be true, and was yesteryear religion. Whereas the fairy story was never believed to be so, but then again, in the eyes of a child such stories are considered `true.' Was medieval man more 'child like,' primitive or less differentiated in his belief then modern man and did he give credibility to the fairytale as we now give credibility to religion? -sharibanflynn
It is possible that both the Myth and the fairytale came up from the exact same internal sources (such as an expression of an Archetype) during our evolution, but were split off for differing purposes. A story that might bring a child, or an adult for that matter, some understanding as to how the world seems to work could also easily be taken to a greater level of complexity and become, as the famous quote goes "an opiate of the people". The same story could become a tool of "governance", or control; or it can become a tool for integration of an individual's attempt to reconcile the paradox between the unique experience of self as consciousness and the common experiences of all humanity.

It seems that we can never walk in the consciousness of another being, but we can share a story that speaks to us both, and therefore, do so metaphorically.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by sharibanflynn »

Cindy B. That is nice stuff you have lead me too and thank you..Your info validates my own findings but you pointed at where all can be found listed!
Jonsjoureny Thanks for your personal comments. And agreed so far except for the opiate of the people which has and will again become so – that’s why such quotes exist I guess- and a form of control –well that’s a good definition of what religion can become: Theocracy and all that.. so perhaps the Fairytale distinction is that it never became a ‘governance or control…Now what is wrong with such a tale becoming a tool for integration of an individual’s attempts to reconcile the paradox…of whatever?
And so with the latter in mind and not walking in another’s consciousness but rather:
The Opie's tell us that the story of Snow White can be found with little variation all over the world `...from Ireland to Asia Minor and in several parts of North and West Africa.' (Opie & Opie 1980:227). So we are dealing with a fairytale which has a lot of meaning for many people and like myth continues to fascinate.
I feel quite humbled as I continue to realise such simple stories as Snow White continues to hold much contemporary relevance that remains deeply buried within its simplicity. I am prepared to conclude that some fairy stories seem to verge on myth, in that, the more I read about the science of myth, the more I reluctantly conclude that this tale, among others, has all the magnitude of classical mythology.
If this was so, then we might give more weight to these simple tales. Perhaps it is `invented' just to show us something of our selves and perhaps these simple stories are as C. G. Jung considers myth to be, the '..unconscious expressions of ourselves...'(Jung and Kerényi 1989:162).

:shock:
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Post by jonsjourney »

Jonsjoureny Thanks for your personal comments. And agreed so far except for the opiate of the people which has and will again become so – that’s why such quotes exist I guess- and a form of control –well that’s a good definition of what religion can become: Theocracy and all that.. so perhaps the Fairytale distinction is that it never became a ‘governance or control…Now what is wrong with such a tale becoming a tool for integration of an individual’s attempts to reconcile the paradox…of whatever? -sharibanflynn
Just to clarify...I hope I expressed this....

method of control = bad.

method of integration = good.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

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Post by Cindy B. »

Just another thought for this thread...

I've said this elsewhere on the board, but I thought that I'd mention again how the grandest myths to nursery rhymes all contain archetypal elements and themes, of course. Fairy tales are particularly interesting since they're "purer" expressions of the psyche at a given point in time, in that they reflect the evolution of consciousness and psychosocial relationships in a way that the grand myths can't. They also better reflect circumscribed regions of the world and how different social groups have addressed a given theme at particular times.

Cindy


P.S. I just want to mention, too, that those types of stories we now call "fairy tales" were not originally tales intended for children.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by sharibanflynn »

My difficulty with 'classical myth' is that it was once believed to be true, and was yesteryear religion. Whereas the fairy story was never believed to be so, but then again, in the eyes of a child such stories are considered `true.' Was medieval man more 'child like,' primitive or less differentiated in his belief then modern man and did he give credibility to the fairytale as we now give credibility to religion?
I would like to believe society has moved on to distinguish a little better between the truth of ‘maybe’, and the fantasy of ‘what if...’. Whatever stance one takes either with religion, myth or fairy tale, they all share a common purpose of transmitting meaning.
The limitations of such an approach is that the description and significance of the protagonist personality is invariably scant and insignificant as the fairy tale centers on ‘the unfolding of story (Von Franz:1980:10).’ However, both Fairytale and myth have stood the test of time, and both contain an underlying pattern or meaning that speaks to our present day condition. On this basis I suggest we take the fairytale seriously and try to discover what this pattern is that people find themselves walking along or struggling on.
(Von Franz Marie-Louise. The Psychological Meaning of Redemption Motifs in Fairytales
1980 Inner city Books. ) :roll:

But no matter how extensively my rendering of the story, I must humbly concede deeper meanings will always remain. As Jung put it, `...The archetypes are the imperishable elements of the unconscious, but they change their shape continually.' (Jung and Kerényi 1989:)
We don't disagree but maybe what it is all about is this 'imperishable element' of the unconscious is a key, held in myth, to assist in our understanding of a pattern, the unconscious maps within us all. What if we can identify this map? It may be possible to 'plan' or 'map out' the stages of life in the analysand, and thereby aid emotional healing. It maybe that we find ourselves meandering through a labyrinth set by archetypes. The archetype here, I suggest is the maiden, kore, the unfolding feminine.

For instance, there are three women in this story, and the first, the caring mother soon dies leaving our hero Snow White with no psychological mother. Thus all the images in the story can be seen or can become aspects of a feminine or the ‘Anima’ irrespective of gender (Jung 1960:345).
(Jung C,G. The Collected Works..Vol’ 8. ‘The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche ‘1960 Routledge London .)
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Post by Stone_Giant »

Very interesting, this contrast between Fairy Stories and Classic Myth. As many here seem to infer - why the separate classification?. To say one is believed as just a story and that the other is believed as true may well hold a vital clue..... Fairy stories are aimed at pre-pubescent humans and their themes have therefore greatest relevance to those experiencing the unbridled and largely self centred emotions of childhood.

Childhood is mainly about "self", wether that be the self preservation of a small weak human (survival) or the self development of the inexperienced mind (education). This self preservation/development defines the nature of many Fairy Stories. Relevant examples being Hansel and Gretel or The Three Bears.

Other themes are obviously about the seismic changes sexual awakening will bring, and act as a guide to the crossing of that particular threshold. What may seem revolting to the small child will turn (hopefully) into the joyous experience of adult sexual love - the Frog Prince being a case in point.

These childhood challenges make the basis of who we are as adults though, and under stressful situations we often regress towards the instinctive behaviours and coping strategies which got us by as children, hence the timeless fascination of the Fairy Story and the attraction of revisiting it. Maybe just to reinforce our conviction that we must NOT stray from the path through the WildWood. Likewise, childhood fears often revisit the mature mind - do the bogie men and old hags of childhood ever really leave our psyches completely?

Classic myths, though, seem to deal with a world in which we acknowledge our peers more; and where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The realm of adulthood demands we broaden our worldview and take on the concept of some sort of civil order and consider our own role in maintaining it.

So there you have it - Fairy stories are angled at the individual, and have the purpose of not only reassuring children, but instructing them also, and moving them as smoothly as possible into their intended role as an adult; Myths are more public/plural in nature, and are primarily concerned with a well functioning society. In general, children are much more credulous and imaginitive than adults, and if the stories we tell them "feel" right to them, then they believe in them. We have no need to insist that they are "true". They work their magic on the young all by themselves and by the time the growing child has dispensed with them, they have already done their work. Classic Myth/Religion is a different kettle of fish altogether.

The need for classical Myth or Religion to be seen as " true" is rooted in the serious need for civil order, that is to say the population must not dismiss the stories of the Gods and their commands (laws) as being pointless, trivial or "untrue", for to do so would be to invoke divine retribution and an ensuing reign of chaos.

Fairy Stories do have some potent champions though. As mentioned in this thread, Jung has often referenced them and then there is Tolkien of course. Tolkien has taken the Fairy Story to unthought of heights in the LOTR trilogy, melding the worlds of Faerie and Myth in a masterful way. There is however at least one other thread on the subject of Tolkien on JCF.ORG so I wont say any more here.

I hope you don't think I'm belittling Faerie in my post. Far from it. To do so would belittle children and the essential child who lives in all of us. And Fairy Stories are most definitely not for children only - I agree with Tolkien on that score. Only the unimaginative could think so.

Finally - check out the song and lyrics to Thomas the Rhymer.....it is one of my all time favourite ballads (based on a fairy story)...with a very special bittersweet significance for my own adult Hero's Journey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h44ZIsB3 ... re=related

Regards SG
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Stone Giant,
To cut to the chase as you are obviously well informed and I find no fault in your commetary above, so here goes:


The universal principles of Maidenhood:

There seems to be six major aspects in the universal principles of life found in the myth of the maiden (Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). How many of these principles can we find in the fairy tale? I offer a brief comparison between what the two professors deducted and what has come to light in our story:


1.a. (the context) The first principle is '... to be pursued...'(Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). Snow White was certainly perused by the step-mother queen, '...and went her way over the hills to the place where the dwarfs dwelt.'(Opie and Opie 1974:232).


1. The second aspect is one of being '...robbed..' (Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). Snow White's heritage was usurped. She was the Princess and rightful heir to the whole kingdom. The step mother robbed her of her rights and would have robbed her of her life too.

2. The third aspect of the myth of the maiden concerns being '...raped, ...'(Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). Such calamities cannot be allowed in childrens stories. However, Snow White was unquestionably physically abused when she was subjected to the wicked step-mother who placed a silk lace for her stays round her waist and '...pulled the lace so tight, that Snow-drop lost her breath, and fell down as if she were dead.(Grimm 1984: 192). Next, the child was subject to a poisoned comb and as she '..stood before the woman to have her hair dressed; but no sooner had the comb touched the roots of her hair than the poison took effect'(Grimm 1984:193/4). Finally, having failed via wrapping the white skin tight and digging into the black ebony hair, she poisoned her with an apple placed between those rosy red lips. All of these together do not amount to rape, but certainly amounts to a serious abuse.



4. The fourth quality according to Jung is for the maiden to '.. fail to understand,(Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). Snow White did this on so many occasions it seems there was never a time she did understand. She was told '... on no account to open the door...'(Grimm 1984:194), which she technically did not, She shouted to the disguised farmer's wife 'I dare not let you in; the seven dwarfs have forbidden me. 'But I am all right,' said the farmer's wife. 'Stay and I will show you my apples.'(ibid:194). On one level could any person be so dim? Snow White is not so innocent though, she did play a role in all of this by her desire for the trinkets and goodies on offer. This showed naivety too, thus giving her full rites of passage to qualify for the archetype of maidenhood found in mythology. When working with people suffering this internal split, I make great play on the qualities of the shadow’s ability to know, to be cute, to have wisdom, as one of the reasons why it is necessary to accept the shadow. However, it seems Snow White is so innocent even at this stage that an approach of trying to introduce the shadow to the her would be almost disastrous. She has to die, and thereby transform and become a woman first.

5. Having suffered so much pain and malice, our sweet hero must at some time undergo the fifth quality '..to rage ‛(Jung and Kerényi 1989:137). In our story there is no hint that Snow White herself actually becomes enraged or grieves, but the shadow does. This can only happen when the prince or the animus has established itself in the feminine psyche.
For the first time, the wicked step-mother 'is actually invited' by the Ego, that is, she joins with what Snow White is doing. The shadow is recognised. This is the final process where the shadow is invited by the Ego to integrate with the Ego, (not the other way round.) In so doing, the Shadow is allowed to express the rage and grieve.

6. The sixth principle is to '... grieve, (ibid)., which is the completion of transition:
I'll let the story take over here and tell its own tale.

'Now it happened that the stepmother of Snow-white was invited, among other quests, to the wedding-feast. Before she left her house she stood in all her rich dress before the magic mirror to admire her own appearance but she could not help saying:
'Mirror, Mirror on the wall
Am I most beautiful of all?'

Then to her surprise the mirror replied :
'Fair queen thou art the fairest here,
But at the palace, now,
The bride will prove a thousand times
More beautiful that thou.'

Then the wicked woman uttered a curse, and was so dreadfully alarmed that she knew not what to do. At first she declared she would not go to this wedding at all, but she felt it impossible to rest until she had seen the bride, so she determined to go. But what was her astonishment and vexation when she recognised the young bride Snow-white herself, now grown a charming young woman, and richly dressed in royal robes! Her rage and terror were so great that she stood still and could not move for some minutes. At last she went into the ball-room, but the slippers she wore were to her as iron bands full of coals of fire, in which she was obliged to dance. And so in the red, glowing shoes she continued to dance till she fell dead on the floor, a sad example of envy and jealously.'(Grimm 1984:198).

Guess that sums up my readings but its application may need further explanation in working with the clinically ill.
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Post by Stone_Giant »

Shariban,

A great post, Well thought out and backed up by detailed references. It is refreshing to see an investigation into what is essentially "the Heroines journey". I know other JCF Forum threads have raised this issue, that Campbell's seminal work seemsto be primarily masculine based. There is of course much in THW 1k Faces which applies to the universal human psyche but the male aspect does seem to dominate.

Anyway, to the case in point.

Some comments

1st aspect . Does "persued" in this instance not mean in the sense of "cherche la femme"?
I am at work and don't have access to my books but I think Campbell said "It is the role of the man to win the prize, it is the role of woman to become the prize"?... or that was pretty much the gist of it anyway. To become the prize is to become desired and therefore "persued." As a beautiful hieress to a kingdom, who has somehow got herself exiled in the forest, she is a highly desireable challenge for the Prince, and has therefore become the object his desire... perhaps.


2nd aspect - Robbed - A notable feature of most hero(ine)s is their unusual birth context. Often they have lost one or both parents and are from dispossed or humble backgrounds. I've always thought that is a condition of the nascent psyche. Consider:- When, as children we first start to use our formidable powers of memory and recall, no matter how hard we try subconsciously, there is always a point where we sense only white noise, where the remembered experiences of our llife tail off into static. It is the first stirrings of existentialist angst; and the miracle birth Hero who has no precedents, no history is the result I think. I see this aspect as equally applicable to both women and men.


3rd Aspect Rape.... hmmm let's see. I think the detaining of snow white by the seven dwarfs could be seen as a sort of whitewashed form of rape. As you say, this is a story told to children but the disneyified cartoon dwarfs probably have a shared genisis with the goblins and trolls of legend who spring from altogether more unsavoury part of the psyche. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nightmare

4th Aspect. To "fail to understand" is surely to fall prey to the arts of the Trickster archetype? The trickster is also a shapeshifter, an upsetter of "programs", our plans go astray because a repressed force in our subconcious suddenly arrives on our daylight doorstep. What is obvious to observers is hidden to us because we are willfully blind to it.

5th and 6th aspects Rage and Grief. As you cleverly point out - the shadow aspects in the story exhibit these qualities - is that any use to you though if you wish to invoke this story as part of a healing process? Would your patients not feel worse about them selves if if they saw only seemingly wicked characters raging and grieving?.. or have I misunderstood how you would use the story?

If I was telling the story I would certainly emphasise how upset and sad/angry the heroine was at being treated so abominably by her guardian. Like the rape aspect, maybe Snow White's rage and grief have been toned down over subsequent retellings. After all it is not a behaviour that you might want to highlight to tantrum prone children - " Snow White threw her toys out of the pram so its OK for me to do it."etc
.

Regards SG
Want to wash away my sins, in the presence of my friends. (Arcade Fire)

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