Technology and Nature

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »


Ah. Then I'll have to disagree. I think what you are describing is a cultural or societal issue, not one of science. Science doesn't argue truths. Science constructs models based on observations and measurements. The model may open to modifications as new observations and measurements arise, but no such relativism has anything to do with science.

Scientists play with facts and aren't that concerned with "truths". People will try to drag science into the realm of "truths" where arguments can take place. Note global warming and evolution. - Clemsy, p.63
Agree Clemsy, this is my understanding too, that science constructs models based on observations and the usefulness of models in predicting outcomes is why we generally value these models. When I wrote;
‘ Ever since the era of postmodernism it is possible to argue just about anything’ I was exaggerating my stance on this issue for effect. Mea culpa. It is not just about anything that is possible to argue. Rather, it is possible to argue something and its opposite and keep getting funded for research. For instance, back in the 80’ the latest fad in treating women was hormone replacement therapy. By the 90’ many women complained about the negative side effects outweighing the positive effects while using Hrt, so a research found a link between Hrt and breast cancer. At first – during the 80’s – scientists said there is no evidence to support any causal link between occurrence of breast cancer and Hrt, but by the 90’s there was some evidence. Now, in 2012, I’ve just heard that there is yet another study claiming to find no evidence of Hrt causing breast cancer.

As scientific principles trickle down to the cultural narrative, people start to talk in terms of things being true. Like effects of gravity, electricity, radioactive material, etc. People do speak in terms of evolution being "true." But to science, it's all about the effectiveness of the model. - Clemsy, p.63
Yes.
" Many religions consider perfect knowledge of all truth about all things ( omniscience ) to be an attribute of a divine or supernatural being. "

( This may be where a small part of the disconnect lies. ) “ - James p.64
Precisely.
Ever since the era of postmodernism it is possible to argue just about anything. – Evinnra


Is not science the antithesis of postmodernism? – Romansh p.64
Yes Romansh, indeed what science attempts to provide is what Postmodernism attempts to deny us. Science attempts to give workable models whereas Postmodernism attempts to convince us that absolutely nothing is certain.

IMO, the problem arises (partly) from seeing science as a way of arriving at the truth. It is nothing of the sort. Science is a methodology for establishing facts, with evidence. The difference between scientific fact and subjective truth is that the former can be verified by anybody, even without believing in it. For example, you may want to believe in a geocentric universe, but the earth goes around the sun just the same.

Science does not reveal the nature of "reality": it gives us a workable model of reality which can be used to explain and predict its behaviour. Sometimes the model has to be refined as the paradigm shifts: for example, from Classical to Relativistic to Quantum. But the model remains dependable (the key word) in the paradigm which it is used. – Nandu p.64
We are on the very same page Nandu.


Some natural disasters are Acts of People.

We, The People, in order to form a more perfect Union, created corporate persons whose greedy, selfish, short-sighted lies and corrupt propaganda have taken over our law, our life and our liberty.

So sayeth CarmelaBear. – p.64
Let me second that!

It is high time we revise the global rules and regulations regarding how to play the capitalism game. IMHO, Capitalism can work but not without a Global Community making sure that it is played FAIR.
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Capitalism can work but not without a Global Community making sure that it is played FAIR.-Evinnra
Mmmm...I'd rephrase it as

A free market economy can work if it is played fair.

For me, "Capitalism" has become synonomous with "global dominance". :(
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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Capitalism can work but not without a Global Community making sure that it is played FAIR.-Evinnra
ie, Effective regulation that minimizes the probability of the boom-bust cycle that was the norm before 1929... and has become the norm again. Make no mistake, the deregulation of the banking and finance industries that climaxed with the elimination of the Glass-Steagall Act (and Bill Clinton did that) paved the way for the 2008 economic collapse.

There is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism. Nothing inherently wrong with socialism. There's lots wrong with people, though. lol!
Truth is found neither in traditional capitalism nor in classical communism. Each represents a partial truth. Capitalism fails to see the truth in collectivism. Communism fails to see the truth in individualism. Capitalism fails to realize that life is social. Communism fails to realize that life is personal. ~MLK
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jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

A free market economy can work if it is played fair. -Neo
How does one regulate a free market? It's a contradiction.

In my mind there are two problems there. First, nothing is "free". Producers will always try to dominate a market and consumers will almost always toss ethical considerations aside in order to get what they want. Second, the idea of fairness depends completely on which side of a line one stands on. There is no "fair" standard that exists in a neutral way. One always has their view of fairness on the side of the line that favors their views. Those views will form the narrative that they use to justify their choices.
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nandu
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Post by nandu »

What I have seen so far in life is that both Communism and Capitalism are failures.

However, communism needs strict government control to keep it from bursting. Capitalism doen't. Once a free market economy is in place, it will stay afloat, with ups and downs, regulating itself.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

Clemsy wrote:
Capitalism can work but not without a Global Community making sure that it is played FAIR.-Evinnra
ie, Effective regulation that minimizes the probability of the boom-bust cycle that was the norm before 1929... and has become the norm again. Make no mistake, the deregulation of the banking and finance industries that climaxed with the elimination of the Glass-Steagall Act (and Bill Clinton did that) paved the way for the 2008 economic collapse.

There is nothing inherently wrong with capitalism. Nothing inherently wrong with socialism. There's lots wrong with people, though. lol!
For me it is not the minimization of the boom-bust cycle but rather the realization that a properly functioning welfare system to counter the effects of 'free-market' economy is what is absolutely requisite if capitalism is to function fair. When predator capitalists obnoxiously declare that some are merely 'looking for handouts' and 'feeling entitled' because receiving welfare, then I think basic human values been thrown out the window. In a dog-eat-dog world some inevitably ends up being the weaker. No? To call them losers on top of being used is just plain, undisguised meanness.

I too am worried about the divisive tone in the US lately, and beginning to think that perhaps it is best if I just don't give a hoot any more. :(
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

p.s. It seems the worse I feel about an issue the worse my English gets. Sorry! :roll:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

For me it is not the minimization of the boom-bust cycle but rather the realization that a properly functioning welfare system to counter the effects of 'free-market' economy is what is absolutely requisite if capitalism is to function fair. When predator capitalists obnoxiously declare that some are merely 'looking for handouts' and 'feeling entitled' because receiving welfare, then I think basic human values been thrown out the window. In a dog-eat-dog world some inevitably ends up being the weaker. No? To call them losers on top of being used is just plain, undisguised meanness.

I too am worried about the divisive tone in the US lately, and beginning to think that perhaps it is best if I just don't give a hoot any more.
Evinnra, this is well said. In order to keep this thread from going too far afield, I'm going respond in the election thread.
Last edited by Clemsy on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

nandu wrote:What I have seen so far in life is that both Communism and Capitalism are failures.

However, communism needs strict government control to keep it from bursting. Capitalism doen't. Once a free market economy is in place, it will stay afloat, with ups and downs, regulating itself.

Nandu.
That's not true. When the fishing happens under a free market model, every boat goes out and catches as much as possible, as fast and long as possible. The result is overfishing and a loss of fish in the oceans and a loss of future revenue.

If you regulate the fishing by limiting the catch and the season for fishing, then the supply of fish in oceans is kept going and, if you're really good at this, the yield increases over time.

The amount of fish available in the Atlantic Ocean is a tiny fraction of the amount that was available two centuries ago. This is entirely due to overfishing.

Fishermen are efficient and brave. They are killing their own industry by doing such a good job that they are killing the Golden Goose.

Regulation is a key to resource capitalism, including the human resource (hence, my belief in birth control).

~
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Evinnra wrote:
I too am worried about the divisive tone in the US lately, and beginning to think that perhaps it is best if I just don't give a hoot any more. :(
I feel powerless a lot lately. I give up and stop caring just to stop the bleeding.

Then, I get a little rest and change gears and decide to be optimistic again and take a step in the right direction and move along the path. I have faith in America and the world. It is not blind faith. It is based on the fact of our existence in spite of every setback.

I am optimistic.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Alas poor Venice:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/flooding-i ... slideshow/

I know, I know: No global climate change here; right?

BTW; please excuse the interruption. ( Just a sad passby note of concern for a " Grand Old Lady. :( )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice
Last edited by JamesN. on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

CarmelaBear wrote:Regulation is a key to resource capitalism, including the human resource (hence, my belief in birth control).
At what level should this regulation be implemented?
Government or self?
I for one have not stopped eating fish to help stop the depletion of fish stocks.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Capitalists hate regulation, so in my mind that goal is doomed to fail.

We ought to be asking questions like: Who owns the Federal Reserve Banks?

But that is off topic, methinks.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Alas poor Venice:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/flooding-i ... slideshow/

I know, I know: No global climate change here; right? -James
Climate change is likely a significant factor. However, other factors are involved.

Short term vision is one. The needs of serving commerce by building a port is an economic goal that seldom concerns itself with long-term planning.

Another is the basic human desire for permanence, which is something that I have yet to find any evidence for in any corner of the universe as understood by science.

Venice is already gone, we just have not come to terms with it yet.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Jon.

Thanks for your thoughts on this and indeed " Climate change " itself is not the only element involved; although I'm not sure we actual disagree here. However; along with what you just said there is this to consider:

http://news.yahoo.com/2028-end-world-kn ... 40191.html

BTW; Meet " Sandy " one of our new candidates on the new " Climate Change " agenda running for office on the global platform of fossil fuel political reform in coming election seasons: :wink:

http://news.yahoo.com/sandy-shook-us-ea ... 08953.html
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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