Technology and Nature

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
nandu
Associate
Posts: 3395
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:45 am
Location: Kerala, the green country
Contact:

Post by nandu »

From the article:
However, there are some numbers on McKibben’s side. Recent polling data shows 74 percent of Americans now believe in climate change, and 68 percent view it as dangerous. The problem environmental activists are facing is in converting those favorable polling numbers into grassroots action.
Here are some grassroots actions that we can try.

Walk to your destination, if it is nearby. If it is far away, if possible, use public transport.

Use bulbs which consume less power; and switch off that unwanted light.

Watch less TV, spend less time at your computer - read more books.

Oil companies thrive because they can sell energy. They can sell energy because we need energy, more and more, as the years go by.

The only thing we can change, without depending on others, is ourselves. Every little bit helps, as the squirrel taught us in The Ramayana.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

I'm not sure we actual disagree here. -James
No disagreement, I was just adding in factors that I think are relevant in addition to our environmental impact. :)
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Thanks Jon;

I definately agree with both You and my " Keralaian " friend Nandu while I will quote Paul Barrett; senior edditor and staff writer for Bloomberg Buisnessweek on the Nov.1st lead article titled " It's Global Warming, Stupid "

Barrett references:
Which raises the question of what alerts and measures to undertake. In his book The Conundrum, David Owen, a staff writer at the New Yorker, contends that as long as the West places high and unquestioning value on economic growth and consumer gratification—with China and the rest of the developing world right behind—we will continue to burn the fossil fuels whose emissions trap heat in the atmosphere. Fast trains, hybrid cars, compact fluorescent light bulbs, carbon offsets—they’re just not enough, Owen writes
.

Although it is certainly important for everyone to get involved and make every effort they can to get this to happen; it is going to take some heavy lifting from other sources to provide the necessary tools and momentum required to bring this kind of " Titanic or Colossal and Overwhelming " achievement about. And here to me lies the difficulty with understanding the dilemma that Al Gore tried to raise when he emphasized the timetable of the ( timeline tipping-point ) of diminishing returns. It has to be an orchastrated and comprehensive approach at ( all ) levels from all countries. ( Also with renewable resources leading the way to replace the dependence on fossill fuels. ) And of course because it will not be percieved intially as in their best interests; the competing and conflicting political agendas plus struggling third-world economies are not going to be easy to ( coerce ) to come onboard with this. ( We have a hard enough time implementing the UN with conflict resolution; much less the establishing the " Kyoto Protocol ". :roll: )

I personally think " Mother Nature " may make her feelings known to get our attention and settle this childish nonsense for us. Hopefully we will listen sooner rather than later. But by producing stronger and stronger events with the increasingly uncomfortable living conditions that is brought to bear in the environment; the global economies will be so tattered and functioning will be so difficult that existance with this will bring us to the undeniable conclusion that we have no choice. But that's just me. :lol: I truely hope people come to their senses and cooler heads prevail. We will need alot of " Heros " to bring this about; ( no? ). Perhaps special Heros like Nandu's " little squirrel of Ramayana " :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

Nandu's and James' statements about personal responsibility got me thinking about the complexity of these issues.

I wonder where we can effectively draw the line between personal action and the function of organizations created through government.

Am I obliged on a personal level to pick up trash that I see? At what point is it ok to give over personal responsibility to "the state" so that certain social functions get accomplished?

On the flip side, at what point do we become dependent and lack the ability to get things done ourselves because we have not had to take personal responsibility for helping to clean up the mess?

It's an interesting crossroad both philosophically and practically.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

nandu
Associate
Posts: 3395
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:45 am
Location: Kerala, the green country
Contact:

Post by nandu »

Jon,

It's not complicated for me. I try to do what I can (sometimes I don't :( ).

If I see something which goes against the grain, I speak out against it. (It's impossible here in the Middle East, in India it's possible because we are a democracy.)

Will I make a difference? Sure. Will I make a significant difference? Maybe, maybe not (most probably not).

I do not care that much. Something attempted, something done, has earned a night's repose.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

romansh
Associate
Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:25 am
Location: In the woods, BC, near US border
Contact:

Post by romansh »

jonsjourney wrote:Nandu's and James' statements about personal responsibility got me thinking about the complexity of these issues.
Exactly
This why I asked about whether it is a societal issue or a personal one.
I had fish and chips for supper last night?
Am I participating joyfully in the sorrows of the world? Should we get the governments to subdue our natures and get them to legislate the use of fish catching technology?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

romansh
Associate
Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:25 am
Location: In the woods, BC, near US border
Contact:

Post by romansh »

nandu wrote: Use bulbs which consume less power; and switch off that unwanted light.
I think this depends on the clime.

Where I live if I did switch to a more efficient bulb, then in winter my heating bills would increase, because any wasted elecrical energy by the bulb goes to heat the house. In summer I don't use lights for much of the day, so is the little bit of the energy I save offset by the energy costs going into making the bulb and recycling?

In hot climes it will make sense.
Last edited by romansh on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Check this fellow out.

I mentioned him awhile back. He is highly thought of and he's been at it since 1989. His book " Radical Simplicity " is well known in environmental circles and has very interesting concepts. He taught " Earth Sustainability " at Dartmouth Collage now heads his own foundation from which he lectures and teaches workshops.

http://www.radicalsimplicity.org/

http://www.awish.net/NA/global_living.htm

http://www.onearth.org/article/radical-simplicity

http://www.pctv76.org/show.php?epid=276

Addendum: I have reworked this post to provide a clearer background and understanding of his work.
Last edited by JamesN. on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

It's not complicated for me. I try to do what I can (sometimes I don't). -nandu
I know that you do not feel that it is complicated for you, but I wonder how that informs your political views, which are how we as a society determine the nature of governance. Not all of the following questions are meant for you personally, nandu, they are wonderings about geopolitics.

If you can vote, how much power are you willing to give up so that parts of a society perform functions you do not have the time, or will, to do yourself? Can private industry be trusted to perform these functions?

I'm not sure how "off topic" this direction is in this thread, but in my mind all of these subjects that are largely social are interrelated in ways that allows for some room to go a bit off of the main line of discussion. Science, technology and politics are in a dance. If economic conditions drive our needs to a more basic level (eg. food, water, shelter), how will this affect funding for science and the technological advances that help to produce clean water, more nutritious food and efficient shelter? Will we cycle backwards if the forces of austerity gain control of how societies function?

The political discourse is caught up in closed spheres of philosophical thinking. Much of the conversation is about ideological issues rather than practical ones. This, in my view, keeps society caught up in an endless fight over what amounts to be a big distraction and keeps us thinking in purely transactional economic terms. The powerful elite are defined as greedy unethical puppet masters operating in the shadows and the poor are defined as lazy leeches who want nothing more than everything to be handed to them. The folks in the "middle" are elevated to a heroic social status, which keeps the poles tugging them toward one interest or the other.

What I see in almost all cases across the globe is the power of the narrative to define how we understand reality and how that understanding is implemented sociopolitically. The power of this narrative is such that it is largely invisible, like gravity, and requires effort to find and understand it. We are being pulled along by economic chains that are fastened to our noses and our brains have been trained to see nothing wrong with this.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

Am I participating joyfully in the sorrows of the world? Should we get the governments to subdue our natures and get them to legislate the use of fish catching technology? -Rom
A fair question...so what do you think?

One could even take it to the point of discussing whether or not the idea of personal liberty and freedom are illusions...but we have gone down that road around here for several years now! :lol:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

I think the conversation on this topic is very relative but is multi-dimensional in nature. Connectioning the dots so to speak; although diverse and possibly somewhat nebulous at times; has real world implications physically; mentally; spiritually; as well as philosophically to both Joseph Campbell's work and everyday interpretation.

From this mornings headlines:

http://news.yahoo.com/bp-expected-admit ... nance.html

And this:

http://news.yahoo.com/ignored-campaign- ... 06018.html

And also this:

http://news.yahoo.com/amid-political-st ... 30194.html

Is this off topic? ( Then perhaps a redefinition is in order; if we are not already addressing it here. ) :?:

( Alas; it may be a symptom of that dreaded disease: " Wandering-Post " Syndrome :lol: ) :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

romansh
Associate
Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:25 am
Location: In the woods, BC, near US border
Contact:

Post by romansh »

jonsjourney wrote:
Am I participating joyfully in the sorrows of the world? Should we get the governments to subdue our natures and get them to legislate the use of fish catching technology? -Rom
A fair question...so what do you think?
I can't say I am joyfully participating in the sorrows of the world JJ, but I'm not gnashing my teeth and wailing either.

Our governments could:
Put a hefty tax on buying fish.
Could stop trawlers going out fishing.
Educate the public as to the consequences of eating fish.

Or we could also let nature take its course. In fact the first three options are also letting nature taking its course.
jonsjourney wrote:One could even take it to the point of discussing whether or not the idea of personal liberty and freedom are illusions...but we have gone down that road around here for several years now! :lol:
Ah the Voldemort of threads.

But it was the point of my last two posts in that thread. That particular subject is relevant to all our activities, in fact it is relevant to the universe. We can pretend otherwise. ;)
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

If I may suggest:

There are two films being released tomorrw; arguably by two of the best film makers of a generation. Both chosen because of what they felt was relevant for this particular moment. Their choices may seem a bit distant in topical setting; but their subject matter is an effort to connect the abstract reference of historical metaphor to the reality of this place in time and the consequences of ignoring it's lessons.

One is Stephen Spielberg's: " Lincoln " and the other is Ken Burn's: " The Dust Bowl ". Here is an interview of Ken Burns that just took place on PBS about the film and it's relevance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9GkNQa5of8

If I am understanding what you are saying I would offer this: To pretend or participate; relevant or otherwise; if you see a snake about to bite someone you kill it, ( as Joseph Campbell said ). But the points that have been suggested also seem valid and as has been mentioned in past discussion the choice one makes is whether to engage or not and the meaning to it which you ascribe; ( no? ) But then I may have been incorrect in my assumptions and perhaps you may help an aging fellow understand. :roll:

Cheers
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

romansh
Associate
Posts: 2277
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:25 am
Location: In the woods, BC, near US border
Contact:

Post by romansh »

James
Well, as someone who is approaching geezerhood, the point I was trying to make without using 'those words', is that, the subject is relevant to all our threads. Whether we are talking about the inter-relationships of technology and nature or not.

;)
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"

JamesN.
Associate
Posts: 2187
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:46 am
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Post by JamesN. »

Romansh;

Thank you for the patient and generous reponse. If I understand correctly and under most circumstances I think that would be true; ( that is depending upon in whatever terms most and application would be defined and under whatever parameters that they as circumstances would fall under ). I as one certainly claim no great enlightened insight on life's mystery here. I just grope along like most folks I know trying to keep a handle on the whatever steering mechanism I'm using to keep the vehicle from going into the ditch. Dimensional inter-relationships can be tricky for anyone and I myself have fallen prey more than once to my own misguided self-misunderstanding. :roll: But the humor; paitence; and empathy that I frequently and shamelessly borrow from my fellow associates here usually keep me on the road and gets me to my destination. ( That is if I understand it may not be the one I originally intended. Life is funny that way. :wink: )

Relevance and application; perception and understanding; Ah the joys of advancement in later life we all must look forward to and whatever " surprise bonus rewards " comes along with that aquisition we must accept. ( Senior moments are one that may be a more frequent visitor. :roll: )

( Now; where were we? ) :lol:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Locked