Consciousness

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Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Obviously you are saying that there is a choice if we see the "real" causes of why we are forced to believe into something. Am I wrong?
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Andreas wrote:Obviously you are saying that there is a choice if we see the "real" causes of why we are forced to believe into something. Am I wrong?
More or less wrong, yes.

What I am saying and have said is, we make choices in the same way a meandering river chooses its path.
Image

There is no forcing etc ... we just end up believing or not, or end up being spiritual or not, as the case may be.
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Post by Andreas »

What I am saying and have said is, we make choices in the same way a meandering river chooses its path. -rom

right.. what does that mean?
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by romansh »

Andreas wrote:
What I am saying and have said is, we make choices in the same way a meandering river chooses its path. -rom

right.. what does that mean?
After all the years I have been discussing this .... ???

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 8476#88476

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 0850#90850
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Post by Roncooper »

Rom,

You have linked to some YouTube presentations that describe materialism, which we have discussed. I thought I would post a link to a talk that gives an example of panentheistic thinking.Perhaps we could discuss this later.

I would be interested in anyone's comments. Thait is how I grow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX8PqznN0ao
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton

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Post by romansh »

Roncooper wrote:Rom,

You have linked to some YouTube presentations that describe materialism, which we have discussed. I thought I would post a link to a talk that gives an example of panentheistic thinking.Perhaps we could discuss this later.

I would be interested in anyone's comments. Thait is how I grow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX8PqznN0ao
Are you sure he is panentheistic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pantheists
http://www.amazon.com/pantheism-Alan-Wa ... 087784724X
I have listened to the first five minutes and thought he did not sound panentheistic.

I don't have 2 h to give justice to Alan Watts ... do you have a shorter version ... say 30 min?
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Post by Roncooper »

Hinduism is Panentheistic and he was presenting that perspective. In my opinion he was a panentheist, but it doesn't matter as long as he is objective.

Stephan Hawking is a Deist according to Wikipedia.

Watts covers a lot of ground in this talk. In fact it is a few talks put together. Perhaps you could listen in three or four settings.

Of course you don't need to. It is pretty complicated after all. It could take some time to digest.
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Post by romansh »

Roncooper wrote: Hinduism is Panentheistic and he was presenting that perspective. In my opinion he was, but it doesn't matter as long as he is objective.

Hinduism can be interpreted in many traditions. Wiki
Hinduism contains pantheistic views on the Divine, but also panentheistic, polytheistic, monetheistic [sic] and atheist views.
Roncooper wrote: Stephan Hawking is a Deist according to Wikipedia.

Not according to Wikipedia! It may have at one time or another said this. Especially on the list of deists page.
Roncooper wrote: He covers a lot of ground in this talk. In fact it is a few talks put together. Perhaps you could listen in three or four settings.

perhaps I will.
Roncooper wrote: Of course you don't need to. It is pretty complicated after all

Ron are you intentionally trying to be rude? Or is it just my perception?


edit
the first 30 min was free of panentheism ... very much monism/non dualistically inclined. Around the twenty five minute mark he suggests that in my language:
  1. 1) there is no intrinsic self
    2) and that we divide stuff into is and is not. (He called it no such thing as things)
Sounds fairly materialistic so far.

Second edit
sounds more pantheistic at the moment. at least to me.

I noticed I used the same metaphor ... mine was an eddy in a pond his was a vortex in a river.

Also he suggested metaphor of being gods when thinking of ourselves as actually in charge. funnily enough I did not consider it emotive language.

Going to give it a rest for a moment.
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Post by Roncooper »

I wasn't trying to be rude, only implying that it would take even more than the two hours of the video.
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Post by Roncooper »

Rom wrote
Roncooper wrote:
Hinduism is Panentheistic and he was presenting that perspective. In my opinion he was, but it doesn't matter as long as he is objective.

Hinduism can be interpreted in many traditions. Wiki
Hinduism contains pantheistic views on the Divine, but also panentheistic, polytheistic, monetheistic [sic] and atheist views.

Roncooper wrote:
Stephan Hawking is a Deist according to Wikipedia.

Not according to Wikipedia! It may have at one time or another said this. Especially on the list of deists page.
It is within the context of panentheism that Hinduism can embrace all the other other views and still be cohesive.

When I read Hawking's bio in Wikipedia they said he was a Deist, perhaps they have changed their minds. Their inaccuracy is exactly my point.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton

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Post by Andreas »

Roncooper wrote:I wasn't trying to be rude, only implying that it would take even more than the two hours of the video.
Ron, I realized sometime ago that if you tell scientists that they are not smart enough to understand something they get offended.

It's their weak spot. :P

Jokes aside..

Bottom line is and I dont think that this will ever get resolved that some people tend to see the material in nature and other people the immaterial, the spiritual or the physical, etc.

I guess this scene describes it best for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAXtO5dMqEI
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by romansh »

Andreas wrote:
Roncooper wrote:I wasn't trying to be rude, only implying that it would take even more than the two hours of the video.
Ron, I realized sometime ago that if you tell scientists that they are not smart enough to understand something they get offended.
Actually I was not offended. I was wondering if history was repeating itself?
:D
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romansh
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Post by romansh »

Roncooper wrote:
It is within the context of panentheism that Hinduism can embrace all the other other views and still be cohesive.
A materialist might understand that we don't really control ourselves ... that as Alan Watts points out there is not an intrinsic self. That our beliefs are not separate from our environment.
Roncooper wrote:When I read Hawking's bio in Wikipedia they said he was a Deist, perhaps they have changed their minds. Their inaccuracy is exactly my point.
I believe you ... I too a have corrected Wiki - regarding some claimed properties of calcium hypochlorite. But they corrected their inaccuracy. We should be willing to do the same, don't you think?
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Post by Roncooper »

Andreas,

I am not trying to win an argument ( I gave up). I am merely presenting a reasonable alternative to materialism. Just pointing out that there are reasonable choices, some that even glorify life.

Andreas wrote.
Bottom line is and I dont think that this will ever get resolved that some people tend to see the material in nature and other people the immaterial, the spiritual or the physical, etc.
From the perspective of the eternal game of hide and seek, some hide from the spiritual and some seek it, and visa versa.
If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. -Isaac Newton

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

I am not trying to win an argument ( I gave up). I am merely presenting a reasonable alternative to materialism. Just pointing out that there are reasonable choices, some that even glorify life. - Ron
Well in my opinion if something is reasonable it is also materialistic.Personally I dont think they have to be reasonable (the alternatives) unless ofcourse that is what you want but yeah.. whatever.. :)
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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