Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three
Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.
You and I already had this disagreement in the Consciousness thread, Neoplato, about the Jungian ego and the evolution of consciousness. I don't want to repeat it here, please. Please just go with the flow for a bit and pick up the rest of the story, perhaps learn something new and different. No one's asking you to leave the conversation.
Cindy
Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
I'm interested in Edinger's take as well. But I'm going to naturally compare it to what I've read in other texts including Jung himself. I have no intention to go out of the way to argue that Edinger is full of bologna (like some people did on my Tacey thread).
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
All I'm try to emphasize, Neoplato, is that apparently you have not read those texts that include infancy and the intial development of ego from unconsciousness and the differentiation from Self. Okay? Edinger and Neumann ran with this one rather than Jung in any depth. Those aspects that you're trying to focus on now come later in the process. First things first, please, so we minimize confusion as we go along while learning this new material.
Cindy
Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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The Self is the ordering and unifying center of the total psyche (conscious and unconscious) just as the ego is the center of the conscious personality.
Since Cindy is busy and also has requested us not to jump the gun, I will try to state here what I understand from these two quotes.There are also a number of other associated themes and images that refer to the Self. Such themes as wholeness, totality, the union of opposites, the central generative point, the world navel, the axis of the universe, the creative point where God and man meet, the point where transpersonal energies flow into personal life, eternity as opposed to the temporal flux, incorruptibility, the inorganic united paradoxically with the organic, protective structures capable of bringing order out of chaos, the transformation of energy, the elixir of life, all refer to the Self, the central source of life energy, the fountain of our being which is most simply described as God. (Ego and Archetype, p.4)
The still point of the universe which is described as the Self here is what humankind has been trying through art, religion, mysticism, sport and countless other activities to identify with. This is what Joe means when he talks about transcendence. For the Hindu, it is identification with the Brahman: for the Buddist, it is the realisation of profound emptiness: for the Christian, it is the rapture of the experience of God. The Self contains undifferentiated consciousness which is linked to the collective, from which the Ego detaches itself as the person grows. The process of individuation, the Hero's journey, are all metaphors for the return to this Self.
Am I correct, teacher?
Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
The first correction that I need offer, Nandu, is in response to your characterization of Self as "the stillpoint of the universe." The Jungian perspective is a Western perspective, and the Self as the central archetype of the collective unconscious is a dynamic (energic) factor.
Second, the goal of individuation is ultimately a consciously acknowledged reciprocal relationship between ego and Self. Theoretically the two would become one and newly whole again, but realistically what most achieve is a working conjunctio (conjunction). Christ and The Buddha, for example, are ideals that are rarely achieved, obviously. At the personal level, however, no one tops Jung, I'd say, or perhaps the medieval spiritual alchemists (per Jung).
In this JCF blog entry I highlight the basic differences between Western and Eastern perspectives and use of terms, something that we should all keep in mind as we go along.
And here is a basic description of the Jungian collective unconscious and Self: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 3302#53302
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Now everyone cross their fingers, please, that today my concentration's better so we can get on with things. I'm very sorry that it's taking so long to really get started with this new material.
Cindy
Second, the goal of individuation is ultimately a consciously acknowledged reciprocal relationship between ego and Self. Theoretically the two would become one and newly whole again, but realistically what most achieve is a working conjunctio (conjunction). Christ and The Buddha, for example, are ideals that are rarely achieved, obviously. At the personal level, however, no one tops Jung, I'd say, or perhaps the medieval spiritual alchemists (per Jung).
In this JCF blog entry I highlight the basic differences between Western and Eastern perspectives and use of terms, something that we should all keep in mind as we go along.
And here is a basic description of the Jungian collective unconscious and Self: http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 3302#53302
***
Now everyone cross their fingers, please, that today my concentration's better so we can get on with things. I'm very sorry that it's taking so long to really get started with this new material.
Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung
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I would dispute that that is the aim of science... but let's not start that discussion, in this thread at least!Andreas wrote:Let's not forget science too.The still point of the universe which is described as the Self here is what humankind has been trying through art, religion, mysticism, sport and countless other activities to identify with. - Nandu
Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
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It seems that teacher's left the classroom again...
However, this pesky kid shall keep asking questions.
Joe Campbell talks extensively about these two models (identification with the deity/ relationship with the deity) in many places in his works. He has never favoured one model over the other as far as I know, but I have always taken transcendence to mean identification - the realisation of Tat Tvam Asi. Does that mean Campbell diverges from Jung in this aspect?
Nandu.
However, this pesky kid shall keep asking questions.
Actually, Cindy, I cannot see a difference here. The fact that the Self is "central" should make it fixed, isn't it? Or am I missing something?Cindy B. wrote:The first correction that I need offer, Nandu, is in response to your characterization of Self as "the stillpoint of the universe." The Jungian perspective is a Western perspective, and the Self as the central archetype of the collective unconscious is an energic factor.
You seem to be saying that the Jungian model approximates the Levantine religious model, that of a relationship with a supreme deity, rather than identification. I am not knowledgeable enough in Jungian psychology to debate this, however, I was always under the impression that "Individuation" meant a return of the ego to the Self.Cindy B. wrote:Second, the goal of individuation is ultimately a consciously acknowledged reciprocal relationship between ego and Self. Theoretically the two would become one again, but realistically what can be achieved is a working conjunctio (conjunction). Christ and The Buddha, for example, are ideals that are rarely achieved, obviously.
Joe Campbell talks extensively about these two models (identification with the deity/ relationship with the deity) in many places in his works. He has never favoured one model over the other as far as I know, but I have always taken transcendence to mean identification - the realisation of Tat Tvam Asi. Does that mean Campbell diverges from Jung in this aspect?
Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu
I am gonna say something about individuation without claiming that I know. Individuation is about wholeness and therefore balance. Seems to me as a method to know thyself and remove the projections to outer objects or situations.
Also like Edinger says to much of anything leads to inflation.
Cindy?
Also like Edinger says to much of anything leads to inflation.
Cindy?
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki
Butting in with your permission, my old friend, until Cindy posts a reply;Andreas wrote:I am gonna say something about individuation without claiming that I know. Individuation is about wholeness and therefore balance. Seems to me as a method to know thyself and remove the projections to outer objects or situations.
Also like Edinger says to much of anything leads to inflation.
imo, individuation is about growth but not necessarily requires a static balance.
Psyche is a big blue ocean and again imo, that's all about growth or
deepening one's level of expereince