Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

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Cindy B.
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Jungian Perspective on Death and Dying

Post by Cindy B. »

Food for thought, James...


The Art of Dying Well: A Jungian Perspective on Death and Dying
by Sue Mehrtens, Jungian Center for the Spiritual Sciences


...and a good intro. to that book of essays I mentioned: Jung on Death and Immortality.


:)



P.S. And, folks, keep in mind that both the context and the content are uniquely Jung's. His perspective and experiences may or may not resonate with you in some way.
Last edited by Cindy B. on Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Wow; what a great collection of his thoughts Cindy! :idea: You are not going to believe this but I had just walked in the door from getting the book you recommended from the library! :o I'm going to have to read this again since there was so many things that it covered. I need to spend more time absorbing it.

Thank you. It was just what I needed.
8)
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Post by Cindy B. »

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy:
Food for thought, James...

The Art of Dying Well: A Jungian Perspective on Death and Dying
by Sue Mehrtens, Jungian Center for the Spiritual Sciences

...and a good intro. to that book of essays I mentioned: Jung on Death and Immortality.

Smile

P.S. And, folks, keep in mind that both the context and the content are uniquely Jung's. His perspective and experiences may or may not resonate with you in some way.

One of the things that really struck me about this article was not just the interpretation of death's role in helping to better define part of the experience of the life process itself; but the description of the ( role ) that the " archetype " and " myth " plays; ( what it is and how it helps to orchestrate the intent within in the process ).
In his discussion of archetypes and the collective unconscious, Jung noted that “Myths are original revelations of the preconscious psyche, involuntary statements about unconscious psychic happenings, and anything but allegories of physical processes. Such allegories would be an idle amusement for an unscientific intellect. Myths, on the contrary, have a vital meaning….”[6]

Myths’ vital meaning derives from the fact that they relate us to the transcendent and the infinite,[7] and help us stay in touch with the archetypal core of our nature.[8] They serve as the bearer of psychic values[9] and “animate images that symbolically replicate energies within us.”[10] Jungian analyst Daryl Sharp defines myth as “An involuntary collective statement based on an unconscious psychic experience.”[11]

“Revelations,” “preconscious,” “involuntary,” “unconscious”—by now you, the reader, might well wonder how you could take up Jung’s advice (in the first quote above) to “have a myth about death.” If “myth” is something we don’t cook up with our rational minds, if it is involuntary and unconscious, how might we go about having a myth about anything?

This is not something we do: it is done to us. We don’t invent our myths—the psyche does[12]—and we then experience them by observing our psychic life, through our dreams, intuitions, flashes of insight and synchronicities (i.e. outer life experiences that appear as meaningful coincidences). Jung’s statement about the task of the second half of life reminds us that, as we age, we need to be more and more attentive to our psychic life, and to the insights it gives us as to our ultimate destination.
( And)
Death is an archetype, one of the experiences we all have, like birth, growing, creating, aging. As an archetype it has intent, i.e. it wants something from us. It seeks to generate behaviors.[33] Like what? Reflection, introspection, a turning within, tending to our soul, appreciating things psychic, like dreams and intuitions, and a deepening of our love of mystery. Death asks us to integrate within ourselves more of reality, including that aspect of ourselves that exists outside space and time. In this way it strives to enrich individual life and make it more whole.[34]

Death also prompts us to become more self-aware, to create more consciousness. Death wants us to use it as a goad to developing more of our potential.[35] Jung experienced this in his near-death experience, when he saw what he had been and what he had lived, and it all was a fait accompli. And he had no regrets.[36]

As the essay on the concept of the enantiodromia noted,[37] Jung stressed the need to hold the tension of opposites. Opposites are found everywhere, in both consciousness and in the unconscious. So, if we have life, we must also have its opposite, death. One of the criticisms Jung would have about our contemporary American culture is its one-sidedness about this pair of opposites, with our almost complete focus on life, and denial of death. We must evolve a culture that can view death as one half of the soul’s experience, every bit as much a part of living as physical existence is.
BTW; the book you suggested is great but I'm just getting into it so I'm assuming there will be more clarity concerning some of this as I go along. ( Thank you very much for recommending it. ) :)
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy I came across this article that addresses Jung's ideas on the individual's search for " meaning and meaningfulness ". Does this seem to be compatable with your interpretation?

http://www.jungatlanta.com/articles/sum ... eaning.pdf
Mythologist Joseph Campbell saw the meaning of life as being
the experience of life. And, for Jung, meaning is an archetypal
component of our psychological existence; “In the same way
the body needs food, and not just any kind of food but only that
which suits it, the psyche needs to know the meaning of its
existence—not just any meaning, but the meaning of those
images and ideas which reflect its nature and which originate
in the unconscious” (CW 13, para. 476).
:)
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Post by Cindy B. »

That's an excellent article, James, and my answer to your question is "yes."


And a comment in regard to this:
Williams wrote:The movement toward individuation calls upon the individual to search beyond the theological question of the masses and challenges us to ask the psychological question, “what and where is the meaning in my being?” In making the solitary move toward greater consciousness, we also move toward discovering the sense of meaning and meaningfulness that Jung felt was the ultimate goal—an intentional and conscious dialogue with the Self...This is the journey into wholeness.
Here I'm merely pointing out the connection to what I've said in the past about one's unique Self being characterized as "the archetype of meaning" and as "the archetype of wholeness."


:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Thank you Cindy; that seemed to coincide with a lot of the material you have been sharing throughout many of these posts. It really seems to be at the very ( core ) of getting a navigational sense of finding as Joe says: " what it is ticking inside them " towards identifying a ( personal path ) that is " particularly specific " to every individual.

Cindy:
Here I'm merely pointing out the connection to what I've said in the past about one's unique Self being characterized as "the archetype of meaning" and as "the archetype of wholeness."

Williams:
As we engage the quest for meaning as Jung describes it, it
is important to be mindful that a solitary journey is not meant
as a call to solitude. Rather, Jung’s intention is to call us to
withdraw our unconscious projections, to dis-identify with all
that is not of our own psychic structure. It is a call to be the
unique individual that we are and to then bring that uniqueness
out into the world, into our relationships and into our daily
lives. It is in this way that we as “modern” individuals can
realize the meaning, the purpose and the sense of meaningfulness
in and of our own unique being. This is the journey into
wholeness ■
8)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Cindy B. »

Yep, 8) .
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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The Individuation Process (Part 3): Ariadne and Theseus

Post by JamesN. »

These text links were originally posted in the " Following the Marga " thread and are two parts of a series: " Why Myths Still Matter " from " Psychology Today " that for me really help to clarify part of the hard to decipher process of ( Individuation ):

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evi ... -labyrinth

( And ):

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evi ... lowing-you


( I took the liberty of reposting them here because I think they are just so good and seem to follow the direction the discussion has been taking; but they can certainly be removed if you have any concerns. ) :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Re: The Individuation Process (Part 3): Ariadne and Theseus

Post by Cindy B. »

These links are quite good, James, with regard to the individuation process. And while their main focus is on this process as part of a therapeutic relationship, the individual who is journeying on his/her own can glean much from this information. For example, I particularly like this passage at the end of the second link:
. . .Psychotherapy sometimes entails helping the patient who has lost touch with this precious [Ariadnean] thread [C: or individual path] to find it, take hold of it, and follow it wherever it may lead, inching along blindly on hands and knees in the darkness through the unknown [labyrinth of the unconscious]. This is a heroic yet humbling task. Jungian analyst Irene Claremont de Castillejo (1973) writes poetically of what I refer to here as our Ariadnean thread as follows: "I like to think of every person's being linked to God [C: aka Self archetype] from the morning of birth to the night of his death by an invisible thread, a thread which is unique for each one of us, a thread which can never be broken. Never broken or taken away, but a thread which can easily slip from our grasp and, search for it as we may, elude us...To be on our thread is in Jungian language to be in touch with the Self."

How can we know when we are really on our Ariadnean thread? That's a difficult question. But one feels as though one is living more authentically and being more true to oneself than before. Anxiety, doubt, insecurity and other symptoms may still be present. But despite such feelings, there is a strong sense of moving in the right direction, even though that movement may be but a step, an inch, at a time. Or sometimes, one step forward, two back. For one patient, it might be something as simple as changing a major at university. For another, it may entail leaving a dysfunctional relationship. For still another, the thread may not necessarily lead so much to outer change as to a fundamental shift in attitude or perspective.

There are also objective indicators that one's thread is being rightly followed: Relationships may run more smoothly, the work life improves, love is found, and sometimes, it seems one's luck has turned around in general. Things gradually begin to fall into place. Life becomes more bountiful. Synchronicity--Jung‘s term for meaningful coincidences--occurs more frequently. The world is more meaningful. And more beautiful. Creativity flourishes. Intuition intensifies. As in many things, trial and error is often needed to discern the elusive Ariadnean thread. Experimentally trying different tacks and painstakingly feeling them out is an integral part of the sometimes tedious thread-seeking process. Listening carefully to and working conscientiously with one's dreams--our connections to the unconscious--can be extremely helpful in finding and following our fine Ariadnean filament.

But once grasped, proceeding slowly but steadily along one's Ariadnean thread provides a profound sense of purpose and meaning in life. As though one is being pulled or guided by some power greater than oneself. As Claremont de Castillejo puts it: "It is when we are on our vital thread that life happens around us in a way that befits our individual destiny, for we have not interfered. This does not necessarily mean that everything happens as we would like. Misfortunes and mistakes are also part of our pattern. Even illnesses may be necessary from time to time to give us pause or teach us lessons we should not otherwise learn. But everything is meaningful and can be seen sooner or later to fit into the pattern of our lives. It is only when we have lost our thread that life seems purposeless, lacking in significance and unacceptable."
Happy Journeying!
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy I just spotted this quote of Joseph's on the homepage that I think is spot on with what we have been talking about. :)
The agony of breaking through personal limitations is the agony of spiritual growth.

Joseph Campbell
The Hero with a Thousand Faces
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Post by JamesN. »

I came across this article this morning about the brain's GPS and it's ability to navigate. I think this points to something I have long felt in that the human ability to " create meaning " is part of this mechanism that helps to guide an individual through the course of a lifetime toward it's goal of an " internal sense of place "; and out of which the resonance of one's own identity is drawn and is used as a kind of radar; ( thou art that ); to help steer them toward the direction for where they want or need to go.:idea:
"Place cells help us map our way around the world, but in humans at least they form part of the spatiotemporal scaffold in our brains that supports our autobiographical memory.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29504761
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Cindy B. »

Hmm... I'm not so sure, James, that this finding relates to psychological journeys as we here think of them. Then again, I'm no Nobel Laureate. :P


P.S. Your post reminded me of a prank that a friend played on me some years ago. My home phone rang, and I heard an elderly lady who called my number by mistake and was lost. She was at a pay phone, so I went through the predictable, practical questions regarding her name (couldn't remember last name), her home address (couldn't recall), the pay phone's telephone number (scratched off), any visible street signs nearby (no), relatives' names (couldn't remember), and what businesses or landmarks were nearby (none recognized). Just as I was about to suggest that she walk into the nearest business and ask for assistance in calling the police, my prankster friend cut in laughing like an idiot--he'd accessed some computer program to contact me. At first I was p---ed since I was genuinely concerned for this lady, but I had to admit that he'd chosen the perfect sap for such a prank. Sheesh. :roll:
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

JamesN. wrote:Cindy I just spotted this quote of Joseph's on the homepage that I think is spot on with what we have been talking about. :)
The agony of breaking through personal limitations is the agony of spiritual growth.

Joseph Campbell
The Hero with a Thousand Faces
Can't disagree with that one, James. And as Jung said, too, "There is no coming to consciousness [C: psychospiritual consciousness] without pain."

:) or maybe :(

Ha!
Last edited by Cindy B. on Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Memory and Meaning

Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:Hmm... I'm not so sure, James, that this finding relates to psychological journeys as we here think of them. Then again, I'm no Nobel Laureate. :P

P.S. Your post reminded me of a prank that a friend played on me some years ago. My home phone rang, and I heard an elderly lady who called my number by mistake and was lost. She was at a pay phone, so I went through the predictable, practical questions regarding her name (couldn't remember last name), her home address (couldn't recall), the pay phone's telephone number (scratched off), any visible street signs nearby (no), relatives' names (couldn't remember), and what businesses or landmarks were nearby (none recognized). Just as I was about to suggest that she walk into the nearest business and ask for assistance in calling the police, my prankster friend cut in laughing like an idiot--he'd accessed some computer program to contact me. At first I was p---ed since I was genuinely concerned for this lady, but I had to admit that he'd chosen the perfect sap for such a prank. Sheesh. :roll:
Hey Cindy. As you may have rightly noticed; my reference was to the navigation of the Labyrinth - Ariadne Thread metaphor and that was what it reminded me of psychologically speaking. I'm sorry if I gave the impression of interpreting this as a literal assumption that it was what they were in fact saying. But perhaps I should have framed it better. ( Sorry about that. ) :oops: :roll:

But while we are here; What do you think some of Jung's ideas were about the relationship between ( memory ) and the ( creation of meaning ) concerning " Individuation "? I don't mean just ruminating or contemplating necessarily; but also with the awareness of a possible " Janus-faced " influence as well; if that makes sense. :wink:


Addendum: Here is a quote from something you wrote awhile back I pulled from another thread that I think might apply here at least to the " Janus-face " aspect in some respects:
Cindy wrote:

This old NYT article may be of interest to some: Personal Myths Bring Cohesion to the Chaos of Each Life
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/24/scien ... all&src=pm

I want to draw attention to something not emphasized enough, though, in this introductory material: The instinctual archetypal/mythic dimension of the human psyche (the collective unconscious) shapes our perceptions and experiences as human beings, that is, what it means to be "human" and what is meaningful about being human, and is pluralistic in nature; and just as the universal human story has many archetypal themes and associated character types that may be expressed, so does the individual human story. I mention this since the question, "What is your personal myth?" can be misleading, it seems to me, and prompt one to look for a single archetypal link for understanding and meaning when the individual psyche, too, is pluralistic in nature. So when uncovering your "personal myth or story," consider what archetypal themes have emerged for you during the course of your lifetime, because each will have shaped where you find yourself in the here-and-now as well as offering clues as to where you might head next. As Jung said, "Anything psychic is Janus-faced: it looks both backwards and forwards. Because it is evolving, it is also preparing the future."
This part in particular seems to point out an element worth paying attention to:

( So when uncovering your "personal myth or story," consider what archetypal themes have emerged for you during the course of your lifetime, because each will have shaped where you find yourself in the here-and-now as well as offering clues as to where you might head next. As Jung said, "Anything psychic is Janus-faced: it looks both backwards and forwards. Because it is evolving, it is also preparing the future." )

So I'm wondering if one is looking back over their life and assimilating it's content and themes in relationship to where they are at any given moment; how might they better understand these " particular forces " that are at work within themselves? :idea:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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