Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

For Campbell, the wise old man, gives the hero(ego) a psychological commitment. I don't see a defeat here.
Andres,

From my take, "the experience of the self is always a defeat for the ego” equates with the idea that the experience of WHO YOU ARE will conflict with the perceived notion of who you think you are and that you identify with. This "deflation" experience is the "defeat' of a "puffed up" persona of personal consciousness.

Hope this helps. :D
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Post by Andreas »

Hey Neo, thanks for the reply.

Yeah I know that the Ego doesn't want to confront the Self since it thinks that is in control and the experience of the Self would overwhelm that.

But I never see such an attitude in The Hero Journey, so what I am asking is.. did Jung and Campbell had a different idea of what the Self represents? Anyways...
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

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Post by Cindy B. »

Regarding the male path of individuation, for instance, an encounter with the archetypal Wise Old Man might also herald the next and final stage of the journey, that being the hero's psychological transformation upon encountering the archetypal Self (aka the archetypal God image).

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Neoplato »

But I never see such an attitude in The Hero Journey, so what I am asking is.. did Jung and Campbell had a different idea of what the Self represents? Anyways
I would have to say "no" because Joe edited "The Portable Jung" in which all this is included. Jung states that the Self is "Supra" to the ego, so I suspect what we see in the "Hero" is the movement of the ego's position from the personal "puffed up" version to the more all inclusive version.

This is a victory for the individual "Hero" by achieving "Individuation", but the idea and concept of who the person thought he was is "defeated".

At least this is my armchair Jungist point of view from my readings. :wink:
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Post by Andreas »

Thanks Cindy. So the Wise Old Man is not exactly the experience of the archetypal Self but simply a taste of what is going to follow.

So...irrelevant with my other question, the Return of the Hero is about the deflation of the ego after it has encountered the Self, no?

Laterz!
Last edited by Andreas on Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Andreas »

Interesting Neo,

The "puffed up" version though is a result of identification with Self.
[But] the self has a functional meaning only when it can act compensatorily to ego-consciousness. If the ego is dissolved in identification with the self, it gives rise to a sort of nebulous superman with a puffed-up ego.[On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 430.]
Anyway, will think about it more tomorrow. Laterz.
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Post by Neoplato »

Andreas wrote:Interesting Neo,

The "puffed up" version though is a result of identification with Self.
[But] the self has a functional meaning only when it can act compensatorily to ego-consciousness. If the ego is dissolved in identification with the self, it gives rise to a sort of nebulous superman with a puffed-up ego.[On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 430.]
Anyway, will think about it more tomorrow. Laterz.
Just to clarify, I was talking about the inflation of the persona due to outer attractions such as offices, titles, and other social regalia.

Then there is the inflation caused by
Many fathomless transformations of personality like sudden conversions and other far-reaching changes of the mind, originate in the attractive power of the collective image, which, as the present example shows, can cause such a high degree of inflation, that the entire personality is disintegrated. This disintegration is a mental disease, of a transitory or a permanent nature, a "splitting of the mind" or schizophrenia" in Bleuler's term. -TPJ Page 93.
Both are obviously extremes of the other. I was trying to imply that "integration" is what the hero actually exhibits after the quest.
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Happiness/Meaningfulness/Individuation/Persona

Post by Cindy B. »

Cindy B. wrote:
JamesN. wrote:Cindy this subject concerns the human ( and/or artistic ) drives that propel an individual. I came across this article this morning and out of curiousity. I went to the " Happyify " website; and then on to the book " Flourish " listed below.

http://news.yahoo.com/katie-couric-happ ... ZJUDMwNF8x


( That led to this. ):


http://www.happify.com/


http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/ ... piness-app


( And then on to this. ):


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/scien ... d=all&_r=0


Now after reading through some of this material my first impression was that it seems almost like a little bit of a " New Age " approach instead of a more solid psychologically grounded inquiry; however; I think there might be some basis for exploring here. So my question concerns the ( confusion ) or difference between the idea of what we might call ( happiness ) and the search for " meaning ". I think it would go without saying as Joe mentions that one must understand and accept the deeper dimensional relationships of both the pain and pleasure within " the rapture or experience of being alive "; as he put it. And contained within these struggles of the individual to seek the realization of their own path my question is; ( Would there indeed be a difference between the search for " happiness and/or meaning? " within the monomyth or " Hero's Journey " ). Now I realize of course that this may sound a bit convoluted and that a component of the process of " Individuation " involves assimilation of some of the clues that may be included as part of the experience or illumination. And I also understand that this search for " fulfillment " might just represent another aspect of this evolvement ; but one of your earlier quotes of Jung's about: " creating a light of meaning in the darkness of mere existence seems to indicate that there is something more to consider if I am clear on this.

My initial thought is that they might be one in the same; ( however ) Jung also states when one reaches later life the " symbols " begin to change their interpreted meaning for the individual because of the interplay between the " inferior and superior " aspects of the self. ( The first half is about the trajectory and realization of life possibilities in the arch of the solar rising; and then the peaking and decline of the individual's inevitable trajectory toward the realities of death. ) And that within this whole " integration " process between all these separate aspects of the individual's growth toward a more harmonized self-realization lies the root of at least part of this perceptual change; i.e. " enantiodromia ". So my impression is that along with the particular life stage one has reached; this inner drive of the individual to define their own sense of meaning, ( purpose ), and/or happiness " changes " over time. ( Again if I am understanding these concepts correctly. )
:)
Howdy, James.


First about Happify. Speaking only for myself, I find it too gimmicky and superficial. It takes more than a pop psychology app to create long-term, personal change...in my opinion, of course. Besides, "The [C: happy] shoe that fits one person pinches another; there is no recipe for living that suits all cases." –Jung :P

James wrote:Would there indeed be a difference between the search for " happiness and/or meaning? " within the monomyth or " Hero's Journey ".
Here again, James, this would depend on how a given person contextualizes and experiences his/her personal journey when it comes to individuation, including stage of life issues as you mentioned. In my case, for instance, meaningfulness most matters, and positive emotions flow from that, maybe happiness or contentment or sheer relief that I survived another emotional detour and managed to integrate the experience in some way. ;) Yet what is negative can prove equally meaningful and as Jung also said, "There's no coming to consciousness without pain," and "Even a happy life cannot be without a measure of darkness, and the word 'happy' would lose its meaning if it were not balanced by sadness." And Campbell, too--"Now there is a wonderful saying in the Buddhist world: 'Life is joyful participation in the sorrows of the world.' All life is sorrowful. You are not going to change that. It’s all right for everyone else to be sorrowful, but what about you being sorrowful? Well, participate!"



And also with regard to contextualization, for example, this from elsewhere on the board:
Cindy B. wrote:
Campbell/James wrote: "I don't have to have faith; I have experience."
Here I'm merely sharing another difference between Campbell and Jung, what at first could appear to be a minor point since, for example, Jung also expressed this quoted notion in his writings, and vice versa regarding what I'm about to say; but when it comes to the personal journey, Campbell's general perspective more so emphasizes "experiencing," while Jung's overall perspective emphasizes "meaning."

I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive. --Campbell

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being. –Jung

This helps, I hope. Along the way I wasn't quite sure that I was hitting the right mark for you.


Ciao! :)
JamesN. wrote:My main query:
My initial thought is that they might be one in the same; ( however ) Jung also states when one reaches later life the " symbols " begin to change their interpreted meaning for the individual because of the interplay between the " inferior and superior " aspects of the self. ( The first half is about the trajectory and realization of life possibilities in the arch of the solar rising; and then the peaking and decline of the individual's inevitable trajectory toward the realities of death. ) And that within this whole " integration " process between all these separate aspects of the individual's growth toward a more harmonized self-realization lies the root of at least part of this perceptual change; i.e. " enantiodromia ". So my impression is that along with the particular life stage one has reached; this inner drive of the individual to define their own sense of meaning, ( purpose ), and/or happiness " changes " over time. ( Again if I am understanding these concepts correctly. )
Cindy:
when it comes to the personal journey, Campbell's general perspective more so emphasizes "experiencing," while Jung's overall perspective emphasizes "meaning."
Cindy we are getting close. In " Pathways to Bliss " pages 99 -104; Joseph talks about the breaking of the primary mask; ( read " persona " here I think ); and that the " meaning " of your archetype or symbol that is pushing you begins to change because of the life stage you are moving into. I think this may refer to say retirement and finding your new trajectory. He mentions antithetical mask as another aspect of the ( societal role conflict within the persona of later age ); if I'm describing this right. And the new task requirement lies within reinterpreting this new meaning; ( I read the " Chrysalis " process here possibly ). But if I understand this whole transformative idea of later life it has to do with ( the change of late life symbol meaning to your particular journey ); which of course is defined by the individual. ( If I am an athlete for instance; what do I do now that I can't play anymore?; as an example. ) Not so much like you said about finding happiness; but finding fulfillment or meaning. Am I making sense here? :roll:

I'll send along a PM as well to see if I can clarify this a little better.
Cindy B. wrote:Hey, James.

I'll do my best to get back to you again tomorrow, and most likely I will go ahead and move this discussion to the Jung thread.

Ciao!
Cindy B. wrote:I'm running on mental fumes today, James, but, comparatively speaking, I'm doing okay so no worries. ;)

I've given thought to your last post, though, and with a decent night's sleep will be back tomorrow.

Ciao, amico! :)
JamesN. wrote:
Cindy B. wrote:I'm running on mental fumes today, James, but, comparatively speaking, I'm doing okay so no worries. ;)

I've given thought to your last post, though, and with a decent night's sleep will be back tomorrow.

Ciao, amico! :)
I hope you can get some rest tonight. In the meantime I spotted a section in that really great piece you wrote for the JCF MythBlog I will quote where there is a specific line that may point out at least part of what I'm digging for concerning " stage of life symbol/meaning change ".

http://www.jcf.org/new/index.php?catego ... &blogid=18
First, I mentioned above that the collective unconscious is the source of those transpersonal and numinous aspects of the Western mind most closely connected to Nature and to the Transcendent and ultimately to a latent unified reality recognized by both East and West; yet as the deepest layer of unconsciousness underlying Western consciousness, the collective unconscious and Self are also paramount in shaping the perceptions and experiences of the conscious ego/self/hero. The Self, therefore, has metaphysical and psychological connotations, and in its totality Jung conceived Self as “the essence of the psyche.” Second, and psychologically speaking, in the same way that the ego/self/hero is at the center of Western consciousness and organizes conscious functioning, the Self is at the center of the collective unconscious and organizes unconscious functioning and the expression of all archetypes, so here we have that previously mentioned psychic relationship between an individual’s conscious and unconscious, such that the ego/self/hero functions as an extension of Self. The relationship between Self and ego/self/hero is reciprocal in certain ways and changes over time, yet the prime mover is always Self.
I don't know if this particular thought is connected to what you have in mind; maybe not; ( there is no mention of shadow interplay and I'm still trying to absorb and organize all these concepts ); so I appreciate your patience with this. I'll wait for your response when you feel up to it. BTW that whole article was a " wonderful " piece of insight in every way. :idea: 8)

Thanks again for all your help.
:)
Cindy B. wrote:James,

I'm glad that you found my blog article helpful. :)

And in the meantime until I can get back to you with a better--that is, predictably coherent :P--post, consider this as food for thought, then let me know what you come up with. (No need to share personal information on the board, though, so you know.) First, you can also think of individuation as a developmental process of the individual psyche as orchestrated by Self. (Recall the Developmental Model of the Psyche re: ego-Self axis?) And change throughout the life cycle is part and parcel of any developmental process. So, with regard to this change that does include psychological, age-related variations, i.e., interpretative change of any salient symbols, consider this for example: How might the five year-old James's interpretation of the Wise Old Man differ from the sixty year-old James's interpretation of the Wise Old Man and its implications? See? Nothing in the psyche is ever static--we're in a continual state of becoming, i.e., individuating--so one's individualized interpretation of salient symbols changes over time, too.

And it only took me thirty minutes to write that single paragraph... :roll:

A bientot, mon ami!


P.S. And now I'm going to go ahead and move this topic to the Jung forum since we've accumulated several posts. And sorry, but I'm left with copy & paste. :|
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

This was extremely helpful so I'm going to step back for a moment and digest all of it for a bit.

Thank you again for everything concerning this Cindy.
8)
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Post by Cindy B. »

And so you know, James, I did check those pages in Pathways to Bliss re: the persona as you mentioned, so tomorrow I'll offer a bit about that.

Bon soir!


P.S. Shadow = The Unconscious (Collective and/or Personal)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Cindy B. »

Since I'm aware, James, that over the past couple days you've been reviewing the Jung threads, I'm wondering if you still have questions or not re: the persona as you previously mentioned.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:And so you know, James, I did check those pages in Pathways to Bliss re: the persona as you mentioned, so tomorrow I'll offer a bit about that.

Bon soir!


P.S. Shadow = The Unconscious (Collective and/or Personal)
( And )

I said:
Cindy we are getting close. In " Pathways to Bliss " pages 99 -104; Joseph talks about the breaking of the primary mask; ( read " persona " here I think ); and that the " meaning " of your archetype or symbol that is pushing you begins to change because of the life stage you are moving into. I think this may refer to say retirement and finding your new trajectory. He mentions antithetical mask as another aspect of the ( societal role conflict within the persona of later age ); if I'm describing this right. And the new task requirement lies within reinterpreting this new meaning; ( I read the " Chrysalis " process here possibly ). But if I understand this whole transformative idea of later life it has to do with ( the change of late life symbol meaning to your particular journey ); which of course is defined by the individual. ( If I am an athlete for instance; what do I do now that I can't play anymore?; as an example. ) Not so much like you said about finding happiness; but finding fulfillment or meaning. Am I making sense here?
Thanks Cindy. I'll try to make this make sense as best I can.

If as has been previously stated that the mask of the persona cracks in later life is this related to suppressed content within the unconscious; ( I'm assuming yes ). ( And ); is this related to the inferior as opposed to the superior function of the self ( and ) to be seen as the shadow making itself known through the process of integration or being individuated; ( confused here ). And would this be related to the process known as " enantiodromia " or more closely to that of individuation or both? ( Also confused. )


See I told you; ( nice and convoluted ); and I'm still working my way through all this material as you can probably tell. But I'm trying to get a better understanding of this process and this is the best I can describe it at the moment. :? :roll: Thanks for helping and checking in on me. It's making a difference although I'm moving slower than I would like to admit.
:lol:
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Post by Cindy B. »

Uh, James, yes, that last post was a tad confusing. :wink: So let's keep it simple and go back to the basics for now:


The persona is a socioculturally defined role that includes associated behaviors, beliefs, and attitudes.

Cindy wrote:[Keep] in mind that the persona has both positive and negative characteristics and implications. As social beings in relationship who need to get along, we must learn to play certain roles in society to function and create meaningful and successful lives for ourselves and our families, and also to contribute to the well-being of society as a whole, and one way we do this is to adopt various personae to meet the demands of the social situations at hand. What is key is developing the insight to consciously choose among various personae with the recognition that we’re playing prescribed roles for specific purposes, and then being able to set aside those masks and their associated beliefs and behaviors until needed again or perhaps discarding them entirely when they no longer serve.
Cindy wrote:...While there's no getting around human nature and the fact that we're social beings who'll always be part of a collective with various roles to play, the individuating person, or one who gives himself permission to follow his bliss, consciously decides for himself which roles to play, when, and how. It's when the nonreflective ego identifies with the persona that problems can pop up and leave the individual at the mercy of the collective and his own unconscious.
:)


P.S. You were over-thinking this one, James, by trying to focus on process.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy:
P.S. You were over-thinking this one, James, by trying to focus on process.
I was " lost in the weeds " I guess. ( Got it. )

This helped too.

Cindy wrote:
...While there's no getting around human nature and the fact that we're social beings who'll always be part of a collective with various roles to play, the individuating person, or one who gives himself permission to follow his bliss, consciously decides for himself which roles to play, when, and how. It's when the nonreflective ego identifies with the persona that problems can pop up and leave the individual at the mercy of the collective and his own unconscious.



Thank you for clearing that up Cindy
.

Cheers :)
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Post by Cindy B. »

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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