Jung (In The Weeds): Part Three

Do you have a conversation topic that doesn't seem to fit any of the other conversations? Here is where we discuss ANYTHING about Joseph Campbell, comparative mythology, and more!

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JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:Yes, yes, I know, I told you all to look out for another post and still haven't posted it.

Sorry yet again for the wait. I got sidelined by the start of an online college course that inconveniently made no mention of assignment due dates for this week (or for any week as far as I can determine, sheesh), so I'm having to tend to that given my general worry about keeping up with most things these days. (I so hope that this instructor goes for Sunday due dates rather than Fridays...)

But, please remember, you're among my favorite people in the world and never forgotten. Truly. A bientot!

Hey Cindy; concerning my quote here:

James:
( Although Cindy may have thoughts about this. )


Just to clarify I was referring to your thoughts concerning Andeas's request about Edinger's " Ego and Archetype "; ( not ) when you would return to offer assistance. Just so you know; no worries about ( when ) you are able to offer insight. We all realize you are tending to assorted tasks. :)


As to this quote:
But, please remember, you're among my favorite people in the world and never forgotten. Truly. A bientot!
" Back at you ! "; as the saying goes. :wink:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

I'd seen your exchange with Andreas, James, but wasn't responding to that so you know. But now that it's come up again, I would suggest that you continue with your basic Jungian studies for a while longer before moving on to the Edinger book.

:)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy B. wrote:I'd seen your exchange with Andreas, James, but wasn't responding to that so you know. But now that it's come up again, I would suggest that you continue with your basic Jungian studies for a while longer before moving on to the Edinger book.

:)

I thought so too Cindy. Mixed in with my other personal issues at the moment I have my hands full with just that right now. ( It is really helping alot too and I appreciate all the guidance with this. )

That said; ( whenever you are able to get to it ); I will look forward to your thought's on the current " Individuation " theme. Aside from some of the imperfections and clarifications you mentioned; most of the " Pathways To Bliss " material has been very insightful for me. :wink:

Cheers :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Hey, all.

I've not forgotten you. In the meantime, please go here.

:)


P.S. to James. So you know, I found nothing to quibble with in Chapters 4 and 5 of Pathways To Bliss. Campbell and Jung are on the same page here for the most part.
Last edited by Cindy B. on Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

archetypes appear in practical experience: They are, at the same time, both images and emotions. One can speak of an archetype only when these two aspects are simultaneous. When there is merely the image, then there is simply a word-picture of little consequence. But by being charged with emotion, the image gains numinosity (or psychic energy); it becomes dynamic, and consequences ofsome sort must flow from it. (Man and His Symbols, p. 87)
So I guess my question would be what Jung means by emotions here or how do emotions charge the image...
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Hey Andreas.

I came across this site recently and here is a link to the Archive section. I have read some things but certainly not all of it. If you have not seen it there is quite a bit of material about some of the areas we have been discussing which you may find of interest: :)

http://mythicdreams.org/archive/


( Like I mentioned before; I have all I can do to keep up with all of this. ) :lol:
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Thanks James, that is one amazing library. :)

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

In bits of moments set aside I have been spending time looking through the material of this site. ( Awesome! 8) ) Here is one of many fascinating pieces:

Let us ask, therefore: What can the value or meaning be of a mythological notion which, in the light of modern science, must be said to be erroneous, philosophically false, absurd, or even formally insane? The first answer suggested will no doubt be the one that, in the course of the past century, has been offered many times by our leading thinkers. The value, namely, is to be studied rather as a function of psychology and sociology than as a refuted system of positivistic science, rather in terms of certain effects worked by the symbols on the character of the individual and the structure of society than in terms of their obvious incongruity as an image of the cosmos. Their value, in other words, is not that of science but that of art: and just as art may be studied psychologically, as symbolic or symptomatic of the strains and structures of the psyche, so may the archetypes of myth, fairy tale, archaic philosophy, cosmology, and metaphysics.

This is the point of view that Professor Rudolf Carnap has presented in the chapter “The Rejection of Metaphysics,” in his University of London lectures, Philosophy and Logical Syntax, which were published in 1935. There he states that metaphysical propositions “are neither true nor false, but expressive.” They are like music, or like lyric poems, or like laughter. And yet, he states, they pretend to be representative. They pretend to have theoretical value–and therewith, not only is the reader or hearer deceived but the metaphysician also. “The metaphysician believes,” wrote Dr. Carnap, “that in his metaphysical treatise he has asserted something, and he is led by this into argument and polemics against the propositions of some other metaphysician. A poet, however, does not assert that the verses of another are wrong or erroneous; he usually contents himself with calling them bad.” 8

C. G. Jung, in many passages, has drawn a distinction berween the terms “sign” and “symbol,” as he employs them. The first, the sign, is a reference to some concept or object, definitely known; the second, the symbol, is the best possible figure by which allusion may be made to something relatively unknown. The symbol does not aim at being a reproduction, nor can its meaning be more adequately or lucidly rendered in other terms. Indeed, when a symbol is allegorically translated and the unknown factor in its reference rejected, it is dead.9 I believe we may say that, in general, the symbols of science and of symbolic logic are, in this sense, signs; and the figures of art, in this sense, symbols.

Joseph Campbell (Flight of the Wild Gander, 98-9) - See more at: http://mythicdreams.org/what-can-the-va ... uiHGU.dpuf
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

Indeed, when a symbol is allegorically translated and the unknown factor in its reference rejected, it is dead.
Interesting. I think this kinda answers my question, but what Campbell means by the unknown factor? Certainly "the unknown factor" must be what fills the symbol with emotion and thus an impact is experienced instead of understood.

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Post by JamesN. »

Andreas wrote:
Indeed, when a symbol is allegorically translated and the unknown factor in its reference rejected, it is dead.
Interesting. I think this kinda answers my question, but what Campbell means by the unknown factor? Certainly "the unknown factor" must be what fills the symbol with emotion and thus an impact is experienced instead of understood.

What caught me Andreas was the difference of psychological position in " interpretation " of the sign or symbol as a " vehicle " which would therefore determine the ( way ) you experienced and determined it's meaning within your own context.That was the main understanding I got from it; but yes I see your point.
Their value, in other words, is not that of science but that of art: and just as art may be studied psychologically, as symbolic or symptomatic of the strains and structures of the psyche, so may the archetypes of myth, fairy tale, archaic philosophy, cosmology, and metaphysics.
If I looked for a symbolic example say that of: " the serpent eating it's tale " and used it as a reference for; ( as Joe put it ): " the monstrous nature of life eating itself "; that would be entirely different rendering or approach than using Darwin's: " Theory of the evolution of the species "; or better yet the narrative of " The Book of Genesis " in drawing a distinction between art, science, and religion and the way one might interpret their experience of " the great mystery of life ". ( Not sure if this is a good example for the " unknown factor " you were considering or if this accurately addresses what you were saying but trying to stay with the thread here. :wink: )


Addendum: This might also be an excellent approach one might utilize in understanding and identifying what ones personal myth might be by separating the cultural interpretations of religion from the clues they are experiencing from their own personal life course; say by the process of " Individuation "; and also by the reflections stimulated by whatever artistic or archetypical interpretations activated within their own psyche as a mirrored response. :idea:

( My own thoughts here. Cindy may have a different take on this. ) :)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

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Post by Andreas »

What caught me Andreas was the difference of psychological position in " interpretation " of the sign or symbol as a " vehicle " which would therefore determine the ( way ) you experienced and determined it's meaning within your own context.That was the main understanding I got from it; but yes I see your point.
Oh yeah, ofcourse, sorry for the personal rant. :P
If I looked for a symbolic example say that of: " the serpent eating it's tale " and used it as a reference for; ( as Joe put it ): " the monstrous nature of life eating itself "; that would be entirely different rendering or approach than using Darwin's: " Theory of the evolution of the species "; or better yet the narrative of " The Book of Genesis " in drawing a distinction between art, science, and religion and the way one might interpret their experience of " the great mystery of life ". ( Not sure if this is a good example for the " unknown factor " you were considering or if this accurately addresses what you were saying but trying to stay with the thread here.
I like your examples. Indeed the interpretation varies but it seems to me that Campbell and Jung say that the interpretation of the physician (science) and the meta-physician (religion) is of the same nature since both see only the factual meaning of the symbol. Art on the other is a different kind of interpretation. Hmmm

Anyway. I am off. :)

Cindy B.
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Jungian Models of the Psyche

Post by Cindy B. »

Jungian Models of the Psyche




Structural Models


Jung 1935*
Image


Stevens' Jungian Psyche: Please go here.
Scroll down to first circular model.


Simple Circular Structure
Image


Conic Structure*
Image





Dynamic Models


Simple Dynamic Model
Image


Psychic Energy/Libido Model: Please go here.


Wave Model: Please go here.





Developmental Model


Edinger's Jungian Ego-Self Axis (Symbiosis Model)
Image
Typically this model's images are circular. (Copying distorted the shape.)



*See post/notes below.




This is as good as it gets, James and all, and my apologies for the text being a bit hard to read. Try enlarging the page size if necessary or clicking on the image.



:)



P.S. Today, 4-9, I returned to this post to check links and found that a couple links are not working. I'm trying to fix the problem now... :? Well, I'm not sure what's up with Photobucket, but I've tried all that I can think of with no luck. Instead I added direct links to those images that I couldn't post. Drat.
Last edited by Cindy B. on Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:55 pm, edited 10 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Notes: Jungian Models of the Psyche

Post by Cindy B. »

Jung 1935* Legend:

A to A: Threshold of Consciousness
B: External World
C: "Shadow World" (i.e., Unconsciousness, personal and collective)
D: Area of Consciousness


Conic Structure* Legend:

Bottom to top: Deepest part of the Collective Unconscious that can never be made conscious. Collective Unconscious. Personal Unconscious. Consciousness. Ego.


:)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

JamesN.
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Post by JamesN. »

Cindy this is " friggin " awesome! :shock: The Irene Gad article is so helpful and the " comparative " aspect is too cool. Thank you for taking time out of your day and all the hard work! 8)
What do I know? - Michael de Montaigne

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Pleased to do so, James. :)
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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