Do we need rites?

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

Hi everybody,

I come from religion which is obsessed with rites: for birth, naming, coming of age, marriage, death...and in Hinduism, the rites change according to caste and subcaste. As a youngster, I was a materialist and dead against rites. They seemed to me foolish, and without meaning. I have a Brahmin friend who lost his faith because he was forced to practise a lot of meaningless rites!

But my life has taught me that rites can give you a sense of peace and comfort, of oneness with the universe, even if they are meaningless. Sometimes, they can tide you over in times of sorrow. If you look closely, all modern professions have their own rites.

So...how do we synchronise these opposites? Rites which repeated meaninglessly turns you from spirituality, and rites which brings you into harmony with the universe.

Your thoughts please...

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

bodhibliss
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Post by bodhibliss »

I have a lot of thoughts, Nandu, on whether or not we need myth - many of which i shared in "Ritual - Who Needs It?", a Practical Campbell essay posted some time last summer.

Rather than repeat myself at length, or cut-and-paste and bludgeon fellow JCF Associates with my excessive verbosity, i'll post the link to the article for those who are interested:

http://www.jcf.org/practical_campbell.php?id=6

As someone outside organized religious traditions, i still find ritual essential in my life - more so than when i was a practicing Christian

(you'd think with all that practice i would have gotten it right sooner or later ... ).

An excellent anthology on this subject is The Myth & Ritual Theory, edited by Robert A. Segal (who penned Joseph Campbell: An Introduction, the first full critique of Campbell's work from an academic rather than partisan perspective). It's composed of selections from the writings of anthropologists and mythologists stretching over a century and a half, ranging from Sir James Frazer and Jane Harrison to Bronislaw Malinowski, Mircea Eliade, Lord Raglan, Northrop Frye, Claude Levi-Strauss, Clyde Kluckhorn, and many many more. No selections from Joseph Campbell's are included, but his work is alluded to at times by some of these theorists.

I doubt we can escape ritual - take a small group of humans, erase our memories, and set us down on an uncharted desert isle, and i suspect new rituals will emerge over time ...

namaste
bodhibliss




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A J
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Post by A J »

Hello Nandu,

I wonder if the difference is not with the rite itself, but with the individual or group which performs it. A rite is "living" if it is performed with an awareness of its meaning, performed with the recognition that it is a symbol for something transcendent.

May I use an example from Christianity - with the understanding that it is only one of many forms? (Campbell said "...it is necessary for men to understand, and be able to see, that through various symbols the same redemption is revealed. 'Truth is one,' we read in the Vedas 'the sages call it in many names.'" HWTF) Each week, I participate in a practice called the Eucharist, or communion, a ritual reenactment of the last meal Christ had with his disciples. During this ritual I consume a small wafer of unleavened bread and a sip of watered wine. Recently, in a discussion with our priest, he said that it was unimportant, in his view, whether or not those bits of food and drink were literally changed into the body and blood of Christ or not. What was more important was that that the practice had the power to change people. And it still can, even those of us, like myself, who can no longer accept a literal view of this symbol. But because I do see it as Symbol of a Transcendent that my merely human brain cannot comprehend directly, I can suspend my disbelief as I participate, and I come away, every bit as uplifted as those who still hold a more simple faith.

AJ


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Post by Raphael »

On 2005-10-06 11:30, nandu wrote:
Hi everybody,

I come from religion which is obsessed with rites: for birth, naming, coming of age, marriage, death...and in Hinduism, the rites change according to caste and subcaste. As a youngster, I was a materialist and dead against rites. They seemed to me foolish, and without meaning. I have a Brahmin friend who lost his faith because he was forced to practise a lot of meaningless rites!

But my life has taught me that rites can give you a sense of peace and comfort, of oneness with the universe, even if they are meaningless. Sometimes, they can tide you over in times of sorrow. If you look closely, all modern professions have their own rites.

So...how do we synchronise these opposites? Rites which repeated meaninglessly turns you from spirituality, and rites which brings you into harmony with the universe.

Your thoughts please...

Nandu.
My thoughts and feelings are we need rites, because they are buried deep within the 'rite / right' hemisphere of the brain.
The Right brain represents the metaphorical Tree of Life in Eden, which is the accumulated experience of life, which is wisdom.

To kill the rites, kills the balance and shackles the spirit to the chaos of expanding knowledge.

THEY win.

Namaste,

Raphael

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ENERGY = GOD
Thus the primordial Law of Thermodynamics says...
God can be neither created or destroyed, he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for making vain graven images and it is called Entropy.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2005-10-08 11:20 ]</font>

Incubuscraft
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Post by Incubuscraft »

Without rites how does one know that one has progressed? You are just as married whether you have a lush ceremony, drive out to Vegas and find a drive-though chapel, or just walk into the office of the Justice of the Peace. But will you FEEL the bond you have just formed as strongly, in you "soul" (whatever that is) without a ceremony?
Will you recognize the greatness of your achievement when you earn your diploma if you don't walk accross the stage? I often forget I have a Masters degree (I had no ceremony for this) but I never forget my B.S. (my parents threw me a party).


"Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you for this insanity." -Cicero

ShantiSong
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Post by ShantiSong »

Hello Nandu,

Bodhi directed me to the Myth and Ritual Theory in a thread I started called Myth vs Rite.

There are many competing theories in this book. I like to take an average of these scholars’ opinions and mix it in with my own feelings about ritual.

My conclusion is that myth can exist without ritual and ritual without myth. But the two together are extremely potent. Part of my religious training as a child is that actions speak louder than words. I think ritual is more important than myth for both the individual and society. To paraphrase Marx and Engels, myth linked to ritual can change the world, where myth severed from ritual can only interpret it.

Individual dreams are to a society’s myths as personal habits are to society’s ceremony.

I think the Japanese have the best example of a ritual driven social system. From an American point of view, they are not very religious, only because the emphasis of our religion is on the story and ethical rules. But from their point of view, we probably seem rather uncivilized in some ways; everyone hanging loose, doing their own thing.

I’ve heard Westerners complain that everything has to be done a certain way in Japan. At first it is fun to learn the different customs, but after a while you get bogged down by all the specific little necessary customs. It’s like living the celebrated tea ceremony.

I know an American who teaches etiquette to foreigners working here in America. American etiquette – that almost sounds like an oxymoron. One time she told me a Japanese man asked her what he is suppose to say to his coworkers when he leaves work.

Shanti


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ShantiSong on 2005-10-14 00:45 ]</font>

nandu
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Post by nandu »

Hello everyone,

I was purposefully keeping quiet in this conversation because I wanted hear different views. If I have a fault, it's that of talking too much!

Hello Shanti! Long time since we've talked!

Anyway, all of us seem to agree on the fact that rites do serve some sort of purpose, even if we are unclear about the meaning. The only thing that is important is that we should feel something when we do it: I'll call it "connecting with the absolute". What has happened to most rites in India is that they are performed as part of some law, as a hateful duty to be performed.

In this context, I'd like to make an observation from the field of Quality Assurance. As you may know, ISO 9000 is the buzzword in all the management circles. What it comprises is a set of procedures to be followed systematically to assure quality. There are some checklists to be ticked and signed off as evidence that these procedures have been followed. The quality auditors periodically audit this evidence.

Nowadays in many organisations, the procedures are simply thrown out of the window while doing the job: and two or three days before the audit, people sit down religiously for the ritual of "Checklist making"!

A fantastic example of a rite separated from its original meaning!

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

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Post by Guest »

Hello everyone. I'm a newby here.
In my young adulthood, I thought rites were meaningless chores. But now that I am a bit more mature (not quite as old as dirt - ha), I see the need that society has for their rites of passage. Our society has lost its common sense (another discussion), so we need our rites to mark specfic stages in life. It's sad, but some have to be told that they have reached maturity (via some ritual) and it's time to act mature.
Just MHO.


Mark O.
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Post by Mark O. »

Just an observation... interesting that at the moment, the two top threads in this forum are this one and the God Father Ceremony thread.

Mark

Rainbow Tara
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Post by Rainbow Tara »

I know this is a late entry, but...I'm still catching up.

It has been said that man is always doing rituals - either you are doing constructive rituals or destructive ones. Note that the behavior of OCD sufferers and serial killers is often referred to as ritualistic. Better to cultivate positive rituals.

I think we do need rites of passage. I think this innate need is why we created them in the first place. My guess is that the existence of rites proceeded the kind of organized religion we have now. Rites are a way of moving our energy toward the next stage of life, preparing for it psychologically, etc. You really don't always know you've been through a major change unless you "mark" it. It is true, people have to be told when it is time to grow up. Especially men (as Campbell has said, women get an internal signal by experiencing first blood and pregnancy). I don't see that as sad, just a fact of life.

One of the proofs to me that we need rites of passage is to observe our modern society's suffering from the lack of them. We still have baptisms, weddings, and funerals, but we are sorely lacking in rites of passage into adulthood. We have a generation of young men who don't know how to behave as men. Nobody took them out to the forest, put on a scary mask, gave them a dose of wisdom, tattooed them, and broke them into manhood. This is causing alienation for them and suffering for the women in their lives. As Robert Bly has pointed out, they often end up trying to initiate themselves into manhood, via gang violence, etc. That cannot be done - it is the older men who must initiate them. We also have untold generations of women trying to hide the hideous secret of the fact that they bleed once a month. It used to be revered and celebrated in some cultures, as the blood of life. This lack of initiation is all very damaging in my opinion.
We still have funerals, but the "official" grieving period is now extremely shortened, due to work, etc. People are running around like wounded animals trying to fund outlets for their grief. Rituals might help them.
Elders do not always know when they have become elders, and that they are to be respected by the community. "Croning" and "saging" rituals might help them.

My father, who does not believe in religion, God, rituals, etc., has been going to every funeral he can get his hands on. At his age, it is easy enough to do as his generation is dying off. Is not a funeral a rite of passage? I think his unconscious mind is grasping at an unmet need for ritual.

Rites do not have to be meaningless. They become so when they are taught as duties without explaining the meaning of them. Then they are no longer alive. When one grows up, one can hopefully choose to abandon the rites they find meaningless, and find a new set or rituals that resonate with them. Then they will be able to practice meaningful rituals.

Peace
Rainbow Tara






creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

I think rites practiced without understanding are meaningless. Maybe maturity brings more open-ness to new understanding, after you figure out maybe you don't know everything after all.

Susan

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Post by creekmary »

Rituals.

We have some. Death rituals. We still have wake services. Usually the second night following the death. Services with preaching and singing and people dropping in all night. Usually church members cook for the family. A meal sometimes when they first bring the body, another usually around 10pm or midnight. The family sits up with the body all night.

Breakfast around 5 or 6 in the morning, especially if there are grave diggers from the family or other churches helping out.

Funeral service usually in the afternoon. The family sits usually in the middle of the church right in front of the casket. Lots of singing. As it ends people usually shake the family's hands as they view the body. The most immediate family sits up front. There is expected to be a lot of emotion. It is the responsibility of the deacons and women's leaders to tend to people who pass out or whatever.

Family members view the body last and there is singing until the body leaves the church. The graveside services end with "a last handshake" where everyone takes a handfull of dirt from a shovel and tosses it onto the casket. Then the able-bodied men take turns filling in the grave until it's done and everybody goes back to the church house and eats. Then it becomes a reunion.

Susan

Bliss 5150
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Post by Bliss 5150 »

If you have ever been fortunate enough to be involved in a Greek Organization - at least mine - let me tell you there are ritual meetings which are wonderful.

They are held in secret preformed during great moments in an undergraduate's life.

Powerful and Ornate, and more solemn than any Catholic church ritual.

They are really wonderful.

bodhibliss
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Post by bodhibliss »

Thanks, Bliss, for sharing that.

I've never belonged to a fraternity (though i have tried to crash a few sororities), so its reassuring to hear there's more to it than typical "Animal House" caricatures. Certainly the hazings grow out of intense initiation rituals that have sometimes gone awry - but it's nice to learn that some organizations preserve the sacred nature of these rites, and that the communal rituals mark significant passages in the lives of the participants.

The bond members of Greek organizations carry throughout their lives seems more than just college and career networking - more a sacred bond, forged in the fires of youth.

I imagine the same is true of various fraternal organizations. I know some Freemasons who view it all as a lark, and others who are indeed into Masonic ritual - attitudes which seem to reflect the orientation and emphasis of the lodge to which each belongs.

Any Masons among us willing or able to share their experience - or rather their perceptions of the experience (i don't mean to suggest anyone reveal rituals they hold secret and sacred)?

bodhibliss

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Post by WRS »

Unfortunately rites and ritual have another name that everybody is conveniently forgetting i.e. INDOCTRINATION. And where that occurrs the mind is absent, just because collective directed energy is powerful does not make it right for an individual. In fact if history is any guideline it is downright detrimental.
Macsam
Bill Shurtleff

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