Are Rites of Passage Really Necessary?
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Nice post. I think I would add to it by saying that I think that the real deficiency in rites of passage is in the passage through adolescence. I see it everyday in boys (and girls, but being male I can identify the former more easily.) I have also seen this discussed on other forums as well. There seems to be a movement in the literary field calling for rituals of this kind... i.e. manhood rituals and the like. As JC pointed out in Power of Myth: Nature "does" it to women, so the passage is marked (by menstruation) as a physical change. For men, aside from bodily maturation, they need outside initiation.
Love the board so far...
LW
Love the board so far...
LW
[ For while many cases can be shown in which a myth has been invented to explain a rite, it would be hard to point to single case in which a myth has given rise to a rite. Ritual may be the parent of myth, but can never be its child.
- James G. Frazer, The Golden Bough (1906-1915)
Twice a month we hold moon ceremonies celebrating the passage of the moon in her two major aspects, full and new. The myths of our ancestors and Jungian ideas concerning the collective unconscious has evolved our rituals concerning the passages of the moon, moving it more into the 21st century.
It was the myths that drew us to the formation of the ritual.
Namaste,
Silvis
- James G. Frazer, The Golden Bough (1906-1915)
Twice a month we hold moon ceremonies celebrating the passage of the moon in her two major aspects, full and new. The myths of our ancestors and Jungian ideas concerning the collective unconscious has evolved our rituals concerning the passages of the moon, moving it more into the 21st century.
It was the myths that drew us to the formation of the ritual.
Namaste,
Silvis
Welcome to the Forums Silvis,
The Frazer quote that you re-posted was part of my question in my very first post in these Forums about five years ago. I asked how Campbell would have answered the question as to which came first, the myth or the ritual? BodhiBliss pointed me toward this book:
The Myth and Ritual Theory
This question, pertaining to myth and ritual, is one of those philosophical questions that are not expected to be answered definitely one way or another. I still lean toward ritual coming first. If you can imagine the routine of our hominid ancestors, hunting, foraging, or cultivating plants, defending their turf, and protecting themselves against predators. But at some point, the hunt, for example, is remembered and communicated as a story. And then the story, told over and over, and embellished with wishful thinking, conveys shared values, and becomes sacred: hence a myth.
But the most difficult thing, I think, for us moderns to appreciate, is the meaning that was seen - not just in the position of the stars, but in all of nature. Now-a-days, that sense of purpose – revealed through nature is not especially inviting. What I think is different between your modern ritual and the ancient one is that their reverence was one of shared submission to these great powers of nature, whereas your reverence is perhaps one of a shared appreciation. But I’m just guessing. I don’t take part in such rituals myself.
However, you are right in this instance. The old stories inspired you to enact a ritual based on those stories. But remember, that the act of telling, of listening to, or of reading a tale is, in itself, a ritual.
- NoMan
The Frazer quote that you re-posted was part of my question in my very first post in these Forums about five years ago. I asked how Campbell would have answered the question as to which came first, the myth or the ritual? BodhiBliss pointed me toward this book:
The Myth and Ritual Theory
This question, pertaining to myth and ritual, is one of those philosophical questions that are not expected to be answered definitely one way or another. I still lean toward ritual coming first. If you can imagine the routine of our hominid ancestors, hunting, foraging, or cultivating plants, defending their turf, and protecting themselves against predators. But at some point, the hunt, for example, is remembered and communicated as a story. And then the story, told over and over, and embellished with wishful thinking, conveys shared values, and becomes sacred: hence a myth.
But the most difficult thing, I think, for us moderns to appreciate, is the meaning that was seen - not just in the position of the stars, but in all of nature. Now-a-days, that sense of purpose – revealed through nature is not especially inviting. What I think is different between your modern ritual and the ancient one is that their reverence was one of shared submission to these great powers of nature, whereas your reverence is perhaps one of a shared appreciation. But I’m just guessing. I don’t take part in such rituals myself.
However, you are right in this instance. The old stories inspired you to enact a ritual based on those stories. But remember, that the act of telling, of listening to, or of reading a tale is, in itself, a ritual.
- NoMan
I was doing some “exploring” and came across this thread that seemed interesting.
Hobbit Wrote: (A good while back, seems like the third age)
Rituals have become as literal as religions themselves. When the meaning and understanding of the ritual is gone, the ritual becomes no more significant as our “routine” we go through in the morning. However, when society expects to look, act and “smell” a certain way, you better perform your morning ritual. I think Wiki nails it on the head what ritual has become. “Compliance, social acceptance, approval, and submission”, IMHO, is now the purpose of rituals.
The ritual for me, is supposed to be a representation of “living the myth”. A ritual should mark the rite of passage in our “becoming human” and living with nature as noman stated; and not represent indoctrination into a group, society or institution much like Boniface was implying.
We as humans need to be taught how to live….not how to act.
Hobbit Wrote: (A good while back, seems like the third age)
And Boniface Wrote:Rites and Rituals are a necessary part of humanity's pre-history and history. Having accepted their presence; the question then becomes are these rituals and rites empowering for an individual and his/her culture in the short/mezzo/macro term? Do the allowed and accepted rituals of a milieu encourage awareness or conformity as measured cultural trait? Do the dominant powers recognize the healthy tension necessarily generated between the requisite poles of conformity and awareness? If not, then do they appeal to the lowest common denominator and lead to Paradigm Blindness (Kuhn's Paradigm Blindness) and its consequences?
And Silvis Wrote:We are social animals and function best when we know "our place" in that society, but today we have very few clear markers that tell us what that place is. We need those clear markers, which are rites and ceremonies of initiation and admission.
And Noman Wrote:It was the myths that drew us to the formation of the ritual.
And Wiki Says:What I think is different between your modern ritual and the ancient one is that their reverence was one of shared submission to these great powers of nature, whereas your reverence is perhaps one of a shared appreciation.
And Neoplato Thinks:The purposes of rituals are varied; they include compliance with religious obligations or ideals, satisfaction of spiritual or emotional needs of the practitioners, strengthening of social bonds, demonstration of respect or submission, stating one's affiliation, obtaining social acceptance or approval for some event — or, sometimes, just for the pleasure of the ritual itself.
Rituals have become as literal as religions themselves. When the meaning and understanding of the ritual is gone, the ritual becomes no more significant as our “routine” we go through in the morning. However, when society expects to look, act and “smell” a certain way, you better perform your morning ritual. I think Wiki nails it on the head what ritual has become. “Compliance, social acceptance, approval, and submission”, IMHO, is now the purpose of rituals.
The ritual for me, is supposed to be a representation of “living the myth”. A ritual should mark the rite of passage in our “becoming human” and living with nature as noman stated; and not represent indoctrination into a group, society or institution much like Boniface was implying.
We as humans need to be taught how to live….not how to act.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
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Re: Are Rites of Passage Really Necessary?
Lizpete wrote:Just thought I'd throw the question out here: Are Rites of Passage Really Necessary?
Seems to me in Campbell's writing of such rites its the tribe that determines when the childhood is done, rather than the person deciding to put childish things away. The first situation seems pretty harsh, in all probablity conferring adulthood or adult experiences on children not yet quite prepared to take in these experiences. The latter situation requires the individual to take on responsibilities he or she might rather avoid, preferring the indulgence of youth.[/quote
Yes RItes of Passages are needed and we need them for nowadays. It can no longer only be the society saying now is the time, nor can it be the child growing up and taking on Re-sponcibilities that further the community,
Nowadays it must be both. At a certain age wes hould start identifying potential candidates coupled with their willing ness to participapte in the she arose he arose journey.
What do u think?
Myth is Math
It’s hard to believe it’s been a year since I made that comment above. My opinion still holds though.Nowadays it must be both. At a certain age we should start identifying potential candidates coupled with their willingness to participate in the she arose he arose journey.
What do u think?
What should rituals be used for and what should they signify? I’m thinking the best one would be something like the “sorting hat” used in Harry Potter.
The life and death ones can get a bit…controversial.
Is that a reference to Hamlet’s Mill?Myth is Math
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
I don't think our society is completely devoid of ritual or rites of passage. I can think of quite a few off the top of my head.
Entering high school signifies the person is maturing. Turning 16 is a kind of coming of age. Graduating high school and turning 18 are seen as the sort of official starting points for adulthood. Birthdays are days when you are supposed to affirm and appreciate the life you've been given, getting married shows that you have reached a point where you're willing to look beyond yourself and take responsibility of another person's life.
But I think these "rites" aren't clear enough. They're muddled with stigma and most times going through one doesn't mean you'll be seen in a different light by your peers. When you consider nature, right now I'm woman because I menstruate. But I don't feel much like a woman. Instead I'm referred to as "young lady" or "girl". I'm expected to act like an adult yet I'm treated like a child. Looking at it now, I think properly handled rites are important because they add a sort of clarity. They give you confidence about where you are in life that no one can dispute.
Normally, I would shy away from rites of passage because they are a group's idea of life and how it should be structured that is imposed on individual people. But as I've been typing this I've realized that even without rites and initiations, the people you are surrounded with are still going to influence the way you view yourself.
Entering high school signifies the person is maturing. Turning 16 is a kind of coming of age. Graduating high school and turning 18 are seen as the sort of official starting points for adulthood. Birthdays are days when you are supposed to affirm and appreciate the life you've been given, getting married shows that you have reached a point where you're willing to look beyond yourself and take responsibility of another person's life.
But I think these "rites" aren't clear enough. They're muddled with stigma and most times going through one doesn't mean you'll be seen in a different light by your peers. When you consider nature, right now I'm woman because I menstruate. But I don't feel much like a woman. Instead I'm referred to as "young lady" or "girl". I'm expected to act like an adult yet I'm treated like a child. Looking at it now, I think properly handled rites are important because they add a sort of clarity. They give you confidence about where you are in life that no one can dispute.
Normally, I would shy away from rites of passage because they are a group's idea of life and how it should be structured that is imposed on individual people. But as I've been typing this I've realized that even without rites and initiations, the people you are surrounded with are still going to influence the way you view yourself.
Wow Alley! The insight you have at your age shouldn’t be taken for granted. Keep it up. I’m still going through rites of passage at 41. They don’t seem to end, only change form.But I think these "rites" aren't clear enough. They're muddled with stigma and most times going through one doesn't mean you'll be seen in a different light by your peers. When you consider nature, right now I'm woman because I menstruate. But I don't feel much like a woman. Instead I'm referred to as "young lady" or "girl". I'm expected to act like an adult yet I'm treated like a child. Looking at it now, I think properly handled rites are important because they add a sort of clarity. They give you confidence about where you are in life that no one can dispute.
Use your insight to enhance your life, and all “rites of passage” that life throws at you, will just be minor hurdles.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
Thanks Neoplato! I appreciate your kind words.Neoplato wrote:Wow Alley! The insight you have at your age shouldn’t be taken for granted. Keep it up. I’m still going through rites of passage at 41. They don’t seem to end, only change form.But I think these "rites" aren't clear enough. They're muddled with stigma and most times going through one doesn't mean you'll be seen in a different light by your peers. When you consider nature, right now I'm woman because I menstruate. But I don't feel much like a woman. Instead I'm referred to as "young lady" or "girl". I'm expected to act like an adult yet I'm treated like a child. Looking at it now, I think properly handled rites are important because they add a sort of clarity. They give you confidence about where you are in life that no one can dispute.
Use your insight to enhance your life, and all “rites of passage” that life throws at you, will just be minor hurdles.
Well said noman, I'm pretty big on Ovid, that was a great example to illustrate your point.noman wrote:Boys start playing with cars, trucks, trains, and planes and other such drivables when they are just tots. It’s a big deal when he gets to drive the real thing. It’s a milestone in the transition from dependency to responsibility. And just like the danger of hunting and warring in primary cultures, the young person is impressed with images of mutilated bodies and mangled vehicles.
We have an intimate relationship with these mobile machines. Some even talk about America’s love affair with the automobile – though I think it extends to other modes of transport; boats, planes, motorcycles, etc. That’s exactly what I mean by making the alien – steel, chrome, plastic, rubber, and glass familiar and personal. There’s an emotion bond between man and material.
At the same time, the young man feels a kinship with his fellow men that know and love these machines in the same way because they have been initiated through the same ‘rites’ – watching auto chases and crashes in films, watching Nascar races, helping their Dad change the flat tire, and being wise about all the new gadgets in cars.
Of course, if you’re sort of a nerd like me you don’t feel this love of motory things as much. But there are other material things that through initiation bind a people together by shared emotional response.
It’s easy to see how getting a drivers license is a rite of passage by looking at a classic story of it gone awry.
You must know the story of Phaeton, whose father was none other than the god Apollo. Phaeton complains to his mortal mum, “My friends don’t believe I’m the son of the Sun God. They say I’m just an ordinary mortal like you mom.
It's so... hum-iliating."
She tells him, “Go east young man, and find your father, so that you may know the truth.”
So he leaves his home in Ethiopia, crosses Asia and India and reaches the edge of the world at the Himalayas. And there he finds his father’s shimming palace of golden sunlight.
Apollo greets him and asks, “Phaeton, why have you traveled so far to the end of the earth?”
“I seek proof of my kinship with Apollo”
“Your mother did not lie. You are indeed my son. And for proof, I, Apollo, god of light, shall grant you one wish. What is it you want? Fame? Fortune? Love?"
“Well, you know, Dad, what I really want, more than anything – you did say any wish didn’t you?”
“Any wish, my son.”
“What I’d really, really like…
- is the keys to the Ferrari for just one night." Apollo’s face freezes in terror
"When my friends see me comin’ down the street in that Ferrari - rappin’ on the cell phone – smokin’ a joint - woofers blastin’ away – boom, boom, boom – my mediocrity complex is gonna disappear like nothin’.”
Of course, you all know what happens to poor Phaeton. He was just a bit too immature and unprepared for this ‘rite of passage’.
And it’s been happening to sixteen-year-olds ever since.Hic situs est Phaeton,
currus auriga paterni,
Quem si non tenuit,
magnis tamen excidit ausis.
- Ovid.
Here lies Phaeton,
the driver of his father's chariot,
which if he failed to manage,
yet he fell in a great undertaking.
- NoMan
The way I see it, keep in mind I'm a relatively young guy, rites of passage are not so much 'necessary' (though they certainly may be) as inevitable. To me, the term 'rite of passage' is very vague and can refer to something as specific as initiation into a Mithraic cult or as seemingly commonplace as trying alcohol or cigarettes for the first time.
Campbell, whose work is undoubtedly in the realm of mythology, discusses rites of passage in terms of the rituals undergone by young men or women, often as a mode of social acceptance/assimilation into manhood/adulthood or as a means of initiation into a religious order or some other type of nonsecular organization.
And still two years later I'm learning more and more. Here's an update.
It appears that although we have mechanical rituals, we don't seem to have the awe inspiring life changing event to bring us into accord (without question) with a functioning society. Of course that could imply that a modern "functioning society" may be nonexistant, that's why rituals have become overshadowed.
However, here's a quote from Joe on that very topic:
It appears that although we have mechanical rituals, we don't seem to have the awe inspiring life changing event to bring us into accord (without question) with a functioning society. Of course that could imply that a modern "functioning society" may be nonexistant, that's why rituals have become overshadowed.
However, here's a quote from Joe on that very topic:
And that, IMHO, would be the point of the mythological function of ritual.You “make believe” and yet you make yourself believe. It’s a wonderful game of serious play.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.
I went through all the church rituals as Campbell did, and haven't been back since..so maybe that was the intention? At the time it was weird to live in a different medieval/70's world, but I have taken that habit of stepping out and aside with me. Not going along with things and I know I will be OK.
Also sitting next to art and sculpture in church every morning was meditative even though I had no words for this, and the priest sent me into a trance that had nothing to do with what he was saying.
I did not send my daughter there, and I am rethinking that decision now that she is grown.
Peace
Also sitting next to art and sculpture in church every morning was meditative even though I had no words for this, and the priest sent me into a trance that had nothing to do with what he was saying.
I did not send my daughter there, and I am rethinking that decision now that she is grown.
Peace