Fixing the Soul In Place

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

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Lizpete
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Fixing the Soul In Place

Post by Lizpete »

I read some where a long time ago that the Japanese (or Buddhists) do not believe that the soul is fixed in place until 40 days after birth.

It seems to me that the Christian rite of baptism could be of similar idea. Althougth I've heard that the rite is to introduces the baby to God, it seems to me the Almighty should already know the child/spirit well. I don't think people believe that if the baby dies before the baptism that God doesn't recognize the child, and I understand the modern view is that the rite introduces the baby to the community.

Does anyone know of a similar tradition of "fixing the soul in place"?
All human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope. Alexandre Dumas <br>America: The call that every generation must improve itself. *Member Generation &quot;X&quot;*

cfheery
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Post by cfheery »

Hi Lizpete,

I don't know of any other examples of "fixing the soul in place" but my understanding of the Christian rite of baptism is that, traditionally at least, through Baptism the child is inducted into the church and is washed clean of Original Sin. Therefore, if a child dies before being baptized s/he is recognized by God but recognized as one who died a sinner and is judged accordingly.

(Some later Christian traditions do not agree with this practice for various reasons, among them that one must come to Christ of his/her own volition, which an infant is incapable of doing.)

You put forth a fascinating possibility of a correlation between the timing of the baptism and the "unfixed soul" though I am having some trouble with how this could be since it would seem to require the body/soul split of reincarnation, which is part of Buddhim but that is not (to my knowledge) found in Christian thought. (I did find a website about the concept but it was apparently quashed in the 550s, see http://reluctant-messenger.com/origen1.html which I have so far only perused briefly)

Care to expound on the correlation that you are drawing? As I said, you've peeked my interest! And there are now shadows of a really beautiful way of thinking about it somewhere in my brain that I can't quite touch.

Ned Kelly
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Post by Ned Kelly »

One of the lesser known rationales for infant baptism in the more traditional Christian sects (let's leave aside the question of whether the Baptists are traditional) is that it symbolises the difference between a newborn human versus all other creatures. In other words, ALL creatures are born, and so simply being born as a creature does not make a human any different from a cockroach. But cockroaches are not capable of holding rituals like baptism to sanctify the arrival of a new life.

Lizpete
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Post by Lizpete »

Well, I wanted to explore the topic a bit, get a sense of the different perspectives and views. (Theological arguments.)

If its to was the original sin away, why are we not immortal? -Why do we slough off this mortal coil? And don't we bear the signs of punishment for it- that Adam's Apple for example.

Thanks!
All human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope. Alexandre Dumas <br>America: The call that every generation must improve itself. *Member Generation &quot;X&quot;*

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

I have spent some time pondering these issues. Here's my take. I know there is a belief that a new body must be born in order for a soul to transfer to another body. So the birth of the new incarnation occurs before the death of the old. I haven't seen 40 days but I know 30 days is often quoted. This however has nothing to do with baptism.

From my understanding, baptism was supposed to be more like cleansing youself of this word. This would be similiar to elminating the ego, or the attainment of nirvana or enlightment. A deteachment from the material world and being born again into the enlightment of truth. This would eliminate the "original sin" of self, want and desire and bring us back into unity with God.

Any other thoughts?

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Post by Neoplato »

I guess not after a month and a half. This was one of my first posts and I find this topic interesting. When does a soul enter a body? When does the consciousness arise? My earliest memory is from about 3 years old, but I know I was conscious before that. Is being alive with no memory of being alive the same as death? Am I the same person as I was at 2?

Again, I'm just fishing for thoughts.

lsg
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Post by lsg »

Zen reminds me of those ideas which are not available to our senses (soul, spirit, a point) essentially imageless and wordless. Plato describes the soul as a circle. Our languages somehow place perimeters on an comprehensive intelligence and sphere of no circumference.
SPIRITO, March 2009 book release in NYC checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxP76kOmyiE

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Somewhere I read were man himself became the living soul. Looking at it from this angle, all that man is seeking he will find in those invisible places within himself.

There is this one note which Ralph W. Emerson bring forth in one of his essays which I find to be more true to man's understanding and comprehension than all the religious dogman and meditational practice, except practicing the presence of God, which is:

Thou you should soar into the heavens

Thou you should sink into the abyss

You never go out of yourself

It is always your own thought that you perceive
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

lsg
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Post by lsg »

I lay in an intensive care hospital bed with catherters and IV's plugged into my body and unconsciuous for several days. My overall hospital stayed lasted one month with the shutdown of my liver and kidneys turning me into a swollen yellow person. After several years my body regained a simliar core strength. In reflection years later, I realized a difference of being unconscious in intensvie care with my out of hospital daily routines. Transcedence maybe one of the words to describe the difference out of our pychological centers.
SPIRITO, March 2009 book release in NYC checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxP76kOmyiE

jufa
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Post by jufa »

It is interesting how man must be brought to a standstill to make him attentive to the reality of his beingness. I am glad you are regaining your strength, and hope you continue to.

We are so accustomed to the conscious activity of ourselves and the world around us, we never stop to consider it is our unconscious which regulate, and direct the functions of our bodies continuously. That it is through our unconscious thoughts first appear and given direction as to where to go for anaylization of this, that, or what or what not to do.

We are so engaged in our unconscious conscious moments of living we never realize our outer objective visions, and inner subjective feelings are truly governed by the invisible reality of the spark of life within us which is truly the engine which runs our inertia of will to conceived, nurture, and birth the conditions we seek to move within.

We are never in control, but we think we are.
Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - jufa
http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com

lsg
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Post by lsg »

It is interesting how man must be brought to a standstill to make him attentive to the reality of his beingness.



Such is the way of life.........................
SPIRITO, March 2009 book release in NYC checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxP76kOmyiE

Lizpete
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Post by Lizpete »

Neoplato, I am sorry I have been away for a while. You wrote:
From my understanding, baptism was supposed to be more like cleansing youself of this word. This would be similiar to elminating the ego, or the attainment of nirvana or enlightment. A deteachment from the material world and being born again into the enlightment of truth. This would eliminate the "original sin" of self, want and desire and bring us back into unity with God.
I am going to take your explaination and push it a bit. How does an infant lose his/her ego? Seems to me at the baby stage one is perhaps all about the self and its needs so it seems unlikely that baptism would have that meaning. Unless the age of baptism was pushed back over time...?
All human wisdom is contained in these words: wait and hope. Alexandre Dumas <br>America: The call that every generation must improve itself. *Member Generation &quot;X&quot;*

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