Ritual

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

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Andromeda
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Post by Andromeda »

Neoplato wrote:Andromeda, I think we're saying the same thing. Laws are required to ensure the stability of society and rituals are required to ensure the stability of a specific religious institution.

These aren't "bad" overall, but they are a controlling influence. Do I interpret your position correctly?
Yes, and yes... and yes...

First let me expand the definition of a 'law' and a 'ritual' as I thought of them. A 'law' is a societal tool, a 'ritual' is also a societal tool... 'laws' andor 'rituals' do not 'have a life of their own'... they are tools like a hammer or a microscope.

Laws/rituals are more than just a requirement to help ensure the stability of a society; or any group of persons gathered in any form of societal interaction, including a religious group. The 'laws/rituals' are a basic functional component that was necessary to even begin the process of creating the society. Without 'laws/rituals' in some form, however weird or unlikely they may have been, the society would not have come into being.

Therefore, the 'laws/rituals' are an integral functional component of the foundation of the society and cannot be done away with or altered without altering the society itself; Much as someone cannot continue to stand on a rock and decide to use another tool to start breaking the rock into smaller peices... eventually someone will fall, metaphorically speaking.

The perceptual differentiation someone may have made between societies/laws and religio/ritual is perhaps not quite perfectly correct. Rituals could perform the same function as laws in any society, religio or not-religio. Laws could perform the same function in any religious group. Both are simply a form of expression and enforcement of acceptable behavior in that society... tools.

Some persons may respond more willingly to a ritualistic enforcement of behavior, whereas some may respond more willingly to some other form for enforcement of behavior. It depends on the mix of perceptions and personalities and expectations of the persons that constitute the society.

The 'laws' and 'rituals' are not 'bad' in and of themselves (even if they allow/justify violations of human rights in any way). The persons that put them in place in the society may have made an error, and not taken into account all the factors which should have been considered when emplacing the tool for enforcement of behavior... but the actual tool itself would not be at fault. Rather the fault would be somewhere in the society itself... a person, a special interest group, or something similar... which had authority and failed to take into account all the necessary factors before moving the rock everyone is standing on, metaphorically speaking.

So, here we have arrived at a deeper meaning of one of any society's inherent responsibilities, to produce individuals with all the necessary qualifications to sustain the society itself, in fact and not just in appearance. Such qualifications very likely include the ability to 'see the big picture' and not to be fixated on personal or political gain within the society. Laws and rituals could, and often do, perform this function within a society. Their effectiveness can be measured by the overall success/failure of the society(s).

imho... rituals tend to produce individuals with more imagination and vision and compassion, and perhaps that is a cause for a great many people to perceive a difference between 'laws' and 'rituals'... however that may be, laws and rituals perform essentially the same functions.

oops... sorry I got rather interested in that idea... please excuse my rambling and i hope you understand my position more completely.
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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Wow Andromeda! Now that's a reply!

I understand what you've written but I don't think I can summarize it. I think I agree with you. :D

Do you agree the issue boils down to "control" vs. "freedom"? The control that is needed for the "good" of society vs. the desire of the individual?

Andromeda
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Post by Andromeda »

Neoplato wrote:Wow Andromeda! Now that's a reply!

I understand what you've written but I don't think I can summarize it. I think I agree with you. :D

Do you agree the issue boils down to "control" vs. "freedom"? The control that is needed for the "good" of society vs. the desire of the individual?
i couldn't summarize it either... I guess that's why I had to say all that to express my thoughts. If I could have I would have! :?

Btw... I wanted to add a thank you for your post(s)... I never would have enjoyed such an interesting idea without your input and stimulus.

Control has such a negative connotation for me... I abhor the thought. However I believe I understand you... in the sense you might have intended control to mean a tool or mechanism to enforce behavior, that is certainly required at times. However Freedom is a basic Human right that should never be infringed unless the infringement itself is a reinforcement of Human rights. Never.

For example, incarceration of an individual who has not violated anyone elses Human rights, in order to force them to cough up attorney/court fees, as only a small contritbution to a larger systemic 'pyramid scheme' involving billions of dollars, in support of a faulty judicial system... that would be absolutely totally wrong.

However incarceration of a murderer (who has been rightly convicted and not set up as part of some scheme) would be totally correct, because in so doing others would be protected from loss of life, and the right to life is also a basic Human right.

imho Human rights is a good foundation for strategy that has the potential to unite the Human race, in spite of all the cultural or psychological or other differences we are blessed with. Such a potential positive basis for unification and all the manifold blessings that would bring should be protected and nurtured and developed, most notably because it may mean the difference...

To agree to a violation of any Human right in any form whatsoever... without carefully considering all the factors and all the eventual effects that might ensue from that... even 1,000 years from now... could be a mistake. I approach that issue with profound wariness, and faith in the concept of inviolable Human rights.

So, it is not 'control' versus 'freedom' that would attract my support, but instead control in support of freedom (and all other Human rights) which would gain my endorsement.

In this manner someone might also find that murderers and other criminals are not mistreated and abused while incarcerated, but provided with an opportunity to relent, make amends, and re-enter society as productive individuals and not as objects for further exploitation by a faulty and abusive legal system.
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

I'm not against laws.

Law is great if it's well-constructed.

Here's the rub: If you kill those who kill, then you're not saying you're against killing. You're just saying that some folks can kill and others can't.

If you physically and emotionally hurt people whose ideas or emotions or expressions you abhor, then you're really not against hurting people. You just decide that one kind of people can do the hurting with permission and the others have to do it on their own.

There is an inherent hypocrisy in a system of laws that harkens back to ancient "eye-for-an-eye" justice as if we were still building pyramids and sacrificing goats.

There are lots of rules of conduct. A recipe tells you the rules of baking a cake. If you ignore the rules, the consequences might either taste bad or poison someone.

There are maps. You can learn to read them and follow them or get lost.

There are rules of etiquette and manners. If you disregard them, you will most likely be ostracized.

There are rules of religion and rituals of belief. The consequences can be psychologically overwhelming. Mental hospitals are probably filled with individuals who dared to defy a system of belief.

In the case of laws, however, we are talking about consquences that involve:

1. The threat of violence.
2. Actual violence.
3. Killing people.

It makes law and government different from all other forms of rule-making and rule-enforcing.

The violence that is necessary to respond to ideas is especially interesting, because the length of time one can be held hostage by the government depends on the IDEAS behind one's crime. If your ideas are unpopular or offensive, the crime you committed is bumped into a new category that permits harsher, longer incarceration.

One instance of this sort of "bumping" is called a "hate" crime. It's NOT hateful to put people behind bars or subject them to capital punishment, but it is deemed "hateful" to choose a target of a crime on the basis of race, creed, sexual orientation, etc. That the law condemns people on that basis every day is overlooked as being somehow beside the point. Juries and judges are free to decide who is credible and who is not on any criterion they choose, as long as they do so privately and discretely. We're still killing innocent poor people, innocent black youth, innocent mentally ill people, etc. The moral inconsistency is one problem, but the INEFFECTIVENESS is a sign of gross mismanagement of authority.

Rarely is any violence required to enforce laws in societies where people are healthy and happy. A set of rules that are supportive, positive and benign are GOOD.

You don't have to beat the people into submission. Compliance can be achieved by non-violent means.

Our current laws ARE threats of violence!!!!!

Thay don't have to be. There are many better ways to achieve acceptable behavior.

~

Andromeda
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Post by Andromeda »

CarmelaBear wrote:I'm not against laws.

Law is great if it's well-constructed.

Here's the rub: If you kill those who kill, then you're not saying you're against killing. You're just saying that some folks can kill and others can't.
That's a reason I shied away from mentioning execution for the murderer in the previous post. The thing you may possibly have misunderstood is that the "State" is a seperate entity. The State is not a person. The State is supposed to be the entity that carries out the will of the majority... in a democracy at least... in some cases this is needed, that is why the "State" entity is an integral part of every government on earth. The State does the dirty work of executing murderers... without the State doing it, it's just another murder, not an execution of someone that will murder us if we dont execute them.

Here's something related to what you pointed out... where any position or role that is granted any type of immunity from the laws attracts the smart criminals instead of the smart pro-social members of the society. For instance an underlying psychological motivator for being a policeperson might include a deep psychological fear of being busted... and that may even cause a person going so far as to seek that position as a form of camoflage/self-defense. It doesn't seem to have any relationship whatsoever to morality, and in the fact all the little things such persons do while in those positions interfere with proper law-enforcement... and cause mistrust and suspicion of all policepersons... and even the laws... and so the more that happens the more and more the fundamental morality of the society is slowly eroded until it reaches the point where the society 'dies' from the multiple complications of the 'disease' it suffers from.

At some point, and if the society is lucky it won't be too late, the people in the society might overcome their ignorance and confusion and fear and call a 'doctor'... who might prescribe foul-tasting medicine or even surgery... sometimes it simply unavoidable.

One of the benefits that a society enjoys from the rites of initiation and passage is a shared morality. This in addition to other benefits works against the 'disease factor' in a society kind of like an innoculation. The unfortunate circumstances many modern societies have allowed to come about... where rites of initiation and passge have been trivialized and repressed in favor of something else is ... well ... not very smart... no matter what someone who benefits from such a lack may claim.
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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

At some point, and if the society is lucky it won't be too late, the people in the society might overcome their ignorance and confusion and fear and call a 'doctor'... who might prescribe foul-tasting medicine or even surgery... sometimes it simply unavoidable.
Here's where I think that the "prescription" has already been given to us.....but it is in the form of "Myth". I think rituals were supposed to be the medicine, "laws" may be "surgery".

However, the "medicine" would be for the mind to help us deal with "afflictions of the mind" that are destructive to our own being.

Andromeda
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Post by Andromeda »

Neoplato wrote:
At some point, and if the society is lucky it won't be too late, the people in the society might overcome their ignorance and confusion and fear and call a 'doctor'... who might prescribe foul-tasting medicine or even surgery... sometimes it simply unavoidable.
Here's where I think that the "prescription" has already been given to us.....but it is in the form of "Myth". I think rituals were supposed to be the medicine, "laws" may be "surgery".

However, the "medicine" would be for the mind to help us deal with "afflictions of the mind" that are destructive to our own being.
I think I see what you are saying. I agree that the tools are readily available; in the form of myths or mythological understandings; in the form of rituals, which could be used to obtain more positive results; in the form of laws, which could be more correctly applied, that is to say justly and in accordance with shared morality concepts... and yes I see those as tools and not as external authorities... to me those are only tools.

The only thing that seems to missing is the will to apply the tools correctly.
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Healing rituals are as important as medical treatment, since the mind and spirit are key to changes in the body. Religious ritual is fairly common, especially with ritual-conscious Roman Catholics, and we're aware of the rituals of shamans and tribal medicine people, but our culture is only now beginning to rediscover the need and efficacy of spiritual action in service of wellness.
Last edited by CarmelaBear on Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Andromeda
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Post by Andromeda »

CarmelaBear wrote:Healing rituals are as important as medical treatment, since the mind and spirit are key to changes in the body. Religious ritual is fairly common, especially with ritual-conscious Roman Catholics, and we're aware of the rituals of shamans and tribal medicine people, but our culture only now beginning to rediscover the need and efficacy of spiritual action in service of wellness.
I agree. Fortunately there are many who realize this besides relatively insignificant thinkers like myself, and put it into practice. I imagine someone could discover a great many applications such as what you referred to, CarmelaBear.

Shamans and tribal medicine people took such a hit from commercialied and politicized influences that the denigration of their efforts is almost universally expressed by a comic figure of a "witch doctor" prancing about half naked and muttering half-insane ramblings... all of which is of course totally ineffective compared to the new 'wonder pill' a pharmaceutical corporation is marketing... but if it saves one life, cures one disease (of any portion of human physiology including spiritual) then it was a good thing.
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CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

I associate a number of things with ritual. One is institutions that govern or influence our mundane lives. Religious ritual is related to government ritual, and often share common origins. Our courts and military are responsible for meeting a serious need for ritual. It can serve exceedingly important psychological and social purposes, though they carry with them a heavy emotional burden. They convey solemnity and dignity, and they can also instill fear and the urge to rebel.

Another association is social in nature. The formal dinner party or cocktail party come to mind. There are business meetings and conventions that are so formal and ordered that they seem to communicate symbolism far beyond the immediate needs of the group.

Finally, there is the private ritual, of which many of us are unaware. Some are simply habits, repeated so often that they become almost mindless. What sets these activities apart is their meaning to us. Perhaps they are associated with health or pleasure or with relationships. Meals are obvious opportunities for ritual. Holidays become a mix of religion or philosophy and commercial pressure to conform.

They seem to organize our mythical lives. The stories behind the rituals are in the background, reminding us of core values.

~

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Law and order?

Post by macoco »

Are rituals ways of limitating or developing human possibilities? I think law in the concept of Dhrama, a way to overcame our lowest characteristics as humans. Giving order to our lowest feelings and motions is not to restrict, but to put in a way to superior golas- better than being fit, being fed, being sexually happy-. I think rutuals are the better wayIn that ordering.
Hapy new year to everyone in the list.
M.

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Developing,,,,,definitely developing..... :)

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Post by freespiritintraining »

Hi Carmela Bear . . .

Why don't you create your own personal, private website? And post your articles (which I also have enjoyed more than once) and then tell some people whom you would like to share this with about it: How to get to it. Just so they know; if they should happen to be interested. Of course, you may or may not get any feedback; and if you do, if may not be what you expect . . . and then your quest continues.

-Brian Leslie Engler
May God Bless you And Those you Love And Care For: It does Anyway: Whether you Like it or Not.

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Post by Aquiessa »

Once you reduce a ritual down to mere symbols in a society, the next thing that follows is the meaning of those symbols are gradually watered down until they are replaced with less important or different symbols and meanings. I can walk up to any native at the reserve not far from me (I live in a remote log cabin) and ask any one of them about their old rituals, and they don't know anything about them. Whites have gradually discouraged the preservation of tradition and consequently those peope are lost some place in between living how they used to, and a new fast paced way of life they don't really want. When I ask them who among them can tell me of their old ways, they shrug their shoulders and tell me that the few living elders are the only ones who could, however they don't understand or speak much english and are certainly not handing down the old ways anymore, at least not around here. As the elders die off, so too does their ritual go into the abyss. Also, the elders don't even want to talk. I'm not saying that is true for all aboriginals, and I do see a revival of native tradition in the Olympics..however I do believe the interests of the white corporatocracy is the motivation, as a pacifier that gets the chiefs onboard with the corporate agenda.
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Post by CarmelaBear »

One thing that is happening with Native Americans of the southwest is that they are rejecting what they deem to be an unacceptable burden placed upon them by the white folk who so delight in native tradition. They are somehow required to be the keepers and developers and broadcasters of the past, as if they embodied the ages.

If we are supposed to live in the now, then why do we ask them to live in the then?

If our traditions continue to serve our needs, they live and breathe with an autonomic energy that fills us. When they create walls that keep us inside a terrible cage of isolation and invisibility, then we begin to question the past. We look for connections between what we know and what we need to survive.

When aboriginal people are honored by those who look to them for the magic of cultural enrichment, there will be a renaissance of appreciation and creativity. I am afraid that our western culture is more attuned to the traditions of Moses and Aristotle and Jesus.

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Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

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