Unique Challenges; Unique Blessings

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

:lol: , ‘blurssing’, the JCF board produced yet another new word.

Distance your self as far as you want from my perspective, it can’t be denied NoMan that the base of our communication IS the compatibility of our ideas. You say that there IS (in being or actual existence) something that is normal, I say that there is the idea of normal, not the manifest existence of it. The trick to work out what to do next lies in aiming for the normal while at the same time silently resigning our self to the fact that manifest things never are perfectly normal. We could start a long conversation on what constitutes ‘being’ or ‘existing’ or we could just agree that yes, there is the idea of normal but not the actuality of it.
Who could say it honestly that if they were given a choice between doing something easy and doing something hard they would always choose to do things the hard way? My first response to your question that the condition of these girls is definitely a blessing comes from my belief that each and every one of us has a unique task to complete in this life. Some of us are more aware of the uniqueness of our task than others, hence most of us end up asking; ‘why me Lord’. I never intended to trivialize the fear and loneliness felt by those who recognize their own uniqueness, my intention was simply to provide encouragement and support.
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

noman
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Post by noman »

Yes Evinnra, there is such thing as Normal. The state of Illinois has a town called Normal. Illinois also has a little town named Oblong. I read somewhere that a newspaper headline read Oblong Man Marries Normal Woman :D This is what happens when I start my own thread. I think I can talk about whatever I want. But, hey, Illinois is in the Midwest and the Hensel twins are in the Midwest - so there is some kinda connection there… sort of…

Okay, you’re right. There is no such thing as normal. Normal is a concept. No one ever sees a tree. They see a redwood tree, or a cherry blossom tree, or a strangling fig tree. These are quite different things. And no one is ever normal. They are only normal by some cognitively created and generally accepted standard of what that word may refer to for a particular subject, in a particular culture, at a particular time.

However, I think we can apply the five-year-old test to the Hensel twins. If we asked a thousand five-year-olds picked at random from around the globe to choose the person that is ‘different’ from a line-up of people that included the Hensel twins I think they would overwhelmingly agree on an answer. We categorize and conceptualize naturally. The Hensel twins take uniqueness to a whole new level. And I think that’s wonderful. But generally, people want to be normal; especially young people. But also, people generally want to be unique and stand out in some way; especially young people. I don’t know what I’m talking about here. I’m not a psychologist. More of a psyche-case.

Hit and run post. Gotta go

- NoMan

BiggieDe
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Post by BiggieDe »

Evinnra awhile back wrote this:
It is definitely a Blessing as far as I recon. Although we all want to be 'normal' there is no such thing really.
Yep, "normal" is up for grabs and has no security even within the tribe. "Normal" gets talked about a lot though, like it's some kind of Rock of Gibraltar sure image that everyone shares in equally. Evinnra has an interesting idea, though, in saying there is an idea of normal "but not the actuality of it." I would simply add, especially where two or more people are concerned. Theory can be just so thick sometimes. Like thinking about normal abnormality and then thinking about our little girls.

Actually, I told myself I wasn't going to comment any further on this thread because it involves making pronouncements about somebody else's life experience. There has to be SOME editorial authority exercised over BiggieDe and it's too big of a job for Clemsy all by himself.

Now, for my parting comments I'll "quote" what Joe Campbell had to say in general about the force of life consciousness breaking into the field of space/time: "It throws up forms and takes them back again."

Cindy B.
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Normality.

Post by Cindy B. »

Early in my life when I first started studying psychology, the terms of the day were "normal and abnormal." Most things I read devoted a lot of time to describing what was "abnormal," but no one ever described what "normal" was supposed to be other than in terms of a negative, i.e., "not this which is 'abnormal.'" So I made a trip to the local library and found a psych. book entitled Normality Through the Life Cycle. You can guess what I found--study after study describing what the average person or group did, thought, said, believed, wanted, expected, etc. at any given stage of life in the States as of the 1970s. Boring. To be "average" or "normal" seemed boring to me, and I'd certainly never met such a person. In fact, all the interesting characters in my life up to that point, good and bad, and including myself, tended toward the "abnormal." Of course the point is that "normality" doesn't exist and is a social construct as defined within a given period of time by a particular collective. Yet those who strive to live their lives given social dictates regarding what is "normal" are living at the level of the persona, so what is unique or creative is quashed and frowned upon. Anyway, I personally prefer to live with my quirks and make the most of my "abnormalities," including those times when my "abnormalities" have taken me to hell and back.

My favorite Jung quote: Normality is a fine ideal for those who have no imagination.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

noman
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Post by noman »

Reading psychology books was a 70s thing for me. It was a natural trend away from religion. But by the end of the 70s and early 80s it was time for a metaphorical bonfire of psychology books. Then I heard Joseph Campbell on a talk show and I’ve been hooked ever since. But I never regained the same interest I had in psychology. Too many authorities, with too many competing theories and terms - and not one of them are wrong, or can be proved wrong or right. Then a few years ago I started yapping on this forum and was confronted with a lot of people who majored in psychology. You reminded me Cindy, of a book from my youth:

The Adjusted American: Normal Neurosis in the Individual and Society

It was the fashion at that time to explain why everyone is neurotic. I think it started with I’m Okay, You’re Okay, 1969, a self help book that reminds everyone that not feeling Okay is somehow ‘normal’, and something we all need to overcome. It was a crazy time.

- NoMan

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

I've not read the book you referenced, noman. What did you think of it?

For someone who's always been as psychologically minded as I am, I was never one to get on the self-help books bandwagon. As you said, during that time self-help gurus were seeping out of the wood work, and everyday someone else had a new theory and a new answer for everything. Even now I look at such folks with a wary eye, and I worry for those among us who are particularly gullible because they're troubled and feel they have no one to turn to but pop psychologists. In my opinion, only those self-help books written by notables in whatever field who have research as part of their resumes and/or a decent history of established success with certain groups should be invested with any trust.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

noman
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Post by noman »

Oh, that book was read too long ago, Cindy. I vaguely recall the arguments, and wasn’t, at the time, functioning as a completely coherent, conscious being. But I remember learning what was meant by neurosis – which could in a way be an antonym for ‘follow your bliss’. Wasn’t a bad book as I recall.

But a little latter someone showed me a book that did make a big impression on me.
The Denial of Death, Ernest Becker, 1973

It’s sort of a mix of psychology/religion/philosophy. At first, after looking at chapter titles I said I don’t read books like that anymore. But then, after being drawn in, it is one of the few books that has remained in my small private library. It gave me a perspective on psychology in relation to religion. There is the way of Freud, and the way of Kierkegaard. But the author most admires Otto Rank who best described the modern problem as a need for heroism. (Again, it is a book that restates that there is naturally something wrong with modern man.)

A bit of 70s trivia. In Woody Alan’s movie Annie Hall, Woody only buys books for his lover Diane Keaton that have the word ‘death’ in the title; Death in Venice, Death of a Salesman, On Death and Dying. There’s a scene in a bookstore, where he shows her a couple of books and one of them is Becker’s The Denial of Death. Something I noticed many years later watching this film. It was a popular book. Becker won a Pulizer Prize for it.

At present, I’m reading Jaynes’ Origin of Consciousness so I’m having a flashback on that late 70s era.

- NoMan

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

noman wrote:But I remember learning what was meant by neurosis – which could in a way be an antonym for ‘follow your bliss’.
I agree wholeheartedly, provided, of course, that what is "neurotic" doesn't come to interfere with creating a meaningful life. Without that psychic nudge saying, "All's not quite right here, so do something about it," we'd never be compelled to go seeking, to grow...to be anyone other than the next average--"normal"--Jane or John Doe.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

"All's not quite right here, so do something about it," we'd never be compelled to go seeking, to grow...to be anyone other than the next average--"normal"--Jane or John Doe.
There's plenty of drugs out there to keep us in that state. :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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