Psychology's Scorecard

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Has modern psychology, since 1890, contributed to the improvement or the corruption of society and of individual’s lives?

A:) Yes, modern psychology has improved society
4
33%
B:) modern psychology has had a small positive effect
1
8%
C:) It's about even
2
17%
D:) modern psychology has had a small negative effect
0
No votes
E:) we've had a hundred-twenty years of modern psychology - and the world is getting worse.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Clemsy wrote:And before religious institutions, shamans. May I venture that this role is archetypal?
Absolutely. At least I've always seen it as so. And for me personally, I've long recognized that I also express the mother archetype through my work, though I wouldn't go so far as to generalize this to all women psychologists.

(Also, Clemsy, I see that you noticed the post script I deleted. I had second thoughts on the chance that it might come off as flippant or derisive in some way...)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Clemsy »

Neither flippant nor derisive, Cindy. A bit of sardonic humor perhaps. Imagine a trained psychologist hanging around the major power brokers....
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Well, there's not enough thorazine in the world that would enable me to handle that one. I'm well aware of my strengths and limitations. :P

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

richard silliker
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Post by richard silliker »

Has modern psychology, since 1890, contributed to the improvement or the corruption of society and of individual’s lives?

I feel it is impossible to answer the question.

The truth is plain to see in the rational world and where can a person go but into a surreal, fraught with danger, in order to build their intuition? If they survive they are heros.

We are the sacrifice of someone or something in a rational world. In the rational world, there is only the self- evident. The problems arise when we try to function in surrealism. In the surreal we argue about who, what, when, where and why in regards to sacrifice on the part of people. Is it any wonder people need intimacy to be able to cope with the chaos?

RS

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Post by noman »

I find it very interesting that 3 of 4 respondents so far feel the question is unanswerable. That’s a perfectly legitimate response. I didn’t think to add it as option ‘F’. I only ask for thoughtfulness and honesty. But when I consider the amount of time and energy and money spent, and ink spilt over the past 120 years in the field of psychology, I’d rather expect a definitive ‘YES!’ – that the net effect is definitely positive and here are some of the accomplishments; a, b, c, d, and e. Why should the question lead into the surreal?
You do know, I hope, that my intention is not to be critical of you in any way or to try to bring you over to the "dark side" :razz:

- Cindy
Cindy - in 358 posts I’ve yet to read anything you’ve written that even comes close to being offensive to anyone – which is more than I can say for my own posts. You do exude an air of mother/counselor kindness and wisdom. I rather like criticism, if it is thoughtful and sincere. In my personal mythology hell is the place where everyone agrees on everything except rank. Rank and politics are worthless unless there is an underlying belief in the value of truth, beauty, and goodness. Criticism should be in the service of all three. And I don’t consider psychology a ‘dark side’. You make me laugh. I have this vision of you wearing a Darth Vader mask and speaking in a deep whisper, “Join me NoMan. Come over to the dark side. If only you knew the power of the force.”

But I’m aware that some people do see psychology as a ‘dark side.’ Psychology and religion have had a historical antagonism, so religious folks are sometimes wary. Jesus is the life, truth, and way – not some scientific, self defined psycho-guru. I think Jung bridges the chasm between science and religion - earning him some degree of disrespect from both sides, and making him all the more attractive to us. But from my experience psychology has as many naysayers who aren’t religious. An interest in psychology is for them, a sort of litmus test of one’s emotional health. So it’s fine for a person to talk about their ideas, feelings, motivations, and psychosocial problems, to speculate on the minds of those people close to them, and to develop solutions to their problems – just so long as it is not officially called psychology or psychotherapy.

To a certain degree, psychologists do have an aura of shamanic powers in our culture. Who knows what secret powers lurk in their ability to unleash, and control, all that is private, sacred, and terrifying in the human unconscious (hoo hoo ha ha ha – sinister indeed). A naïve view - but I suspect, an attitude psychologists have to deal with.

However, my poll question is philosophical, not political. One of the first works after WWII on Nietzsche was Walter Kaufman’s Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist. Nietzsche felt it was time to throw Christianity out the window. Over a hundred years later, it doesn’t look like Christianity is going anywhere any time soon. Campbell was a great admirer of Nietzsche – but in my mind, no enemy of Christianity. Such is the way of philosophy.

I didn’t ask if psychology should be thrown out the window. I only ask for a philosophical assessment of its worth and progress. It seems reasonable to me, playing philosopher. But then, I imagine what it would be like to ask a bunch of practicing economists, who are working on real problems, whether the practice of economics has ever done anything worthwhile for humankind. Could be construed as somewhat of an insult.

So forgive me Cindy if I have sinned… :(

- NoMan

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Post by Cindy B. »

Ha! Now you make me laugh, noman. :D Rather than Darth Vader, though, let's make her Darth Mater, maybe. Then again, something tells me that the last thing on the mind of this "terrible mother" would be helping anyone...

One other thing that I'd like to add for you about the role of a therapist is that any therapist genuinely worth his/her salt, so to speak, does not go into the therapeutic relationship with preconceived notions about what's best for the client or what the client should do; I mention this given some of what you brought out in your last post. It truly is all about the person sitting before us and helping him to discover how to help himself in whatever way suits him best. So, in my opinion, the most effective therapists are those who are eclectic in their approach, and are able to draw from a wide range of theories and practices since no two people are the same, of course, and will not resonate with a single psychological approach or with certain types of theoretically-prescribed clinical relationships. Die-hard adherents to any psychological theory do their clients no favors when what they're offering says more about them and their beliefs as a therapist than what the client seems to need. So, true, in certain situations it is conceivable that a therapist can do more harm than good, and should the therapeutic relationship be failing, then hopefully the therapist is at least wise enough to recognize when the time has come to refer that client elsewhere.

As for your poll, noman, obviously I believe that psychology in its many forms is beneficial for modern society, so now I'm going to go up and vote "yes." Yet perhaps your next poll could ask, Where would we be had psychology and/or the social sciences not entered the human arena? Something had to emerge capable of addressing the complexities of modern life and living, because as time goes on, humankind is all too prone to shoot ourselves in the foot...and each other. Somehow we have to learn to better cultivate what's best about human nature and combat our worst because we're proving to be our own worst enemy.

Cheery, huh. :wink:

Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by jonsjourney »

I cannot wait to jump in here. I have been frustrated this whole semester by my other obligations (18hrs of coursework) that have kept me away from the forums so much...especially in light of all the cool topics of late.

I hope to dive into this one this weekend...great discussion so far!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Noman Wrote:
And I don’t consider psychology a ‘dark side’. You make me laugh. I have this vision of you wearing a Darth Vader mask and speaking in a deep whisper, “Join me NoMan. Come over to the dark side. If only you knew the power of the force.”
Hmmm....I was under the impression that many people consider Jungian Psychology "the dark side". :wink:

My take is that it's really just trying to bring balance to the force. :D
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jonsjourney »

One of the first thoughts that comes to my mind is...what do we expect from Psychology?

Our expectations determine our attitude toward anything.

As I have navigated my way through the various coursework, I have have experienced "likes" (personality psych, psych of adjustment, social psych, history of...) and some "dislikes" (behaviorism, Industrial Psych, research methods). These likes and likes are completely subjective to my own inclinations. I personally like Carl Jung...reading The Undiscovered Self, in many ways, set me on my current course...but in the current research-driven atmosphere, his work is marginalized, even ignored. Why? Because it is so hard to make his theories operationally objective.

My current investigation into mindfulness has turned up more and more criticisms of the technique as being difficult to define in clear, verifiable terms. The criticisms do not for one minute deride the efficacy of therapeutic techniques such as Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy or Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. In fact, I have yet to find a significant study that questions the efficacy of either. Each offers legitimate promise for long-term relief, often without any need for medications for those who have long suffered from depression and anxiety disorders. Even my own investigation into whether or not Westerners have additional difficulty with a Buddhist concept such as mindfulness has yielded almost no studies either way. Yet, there are many who continue to resist the technique because much of what makes it work cannot be easily defined. It's power may exist in the "black box" that lies between a stimulus and a response that Watson and Skinner so abhorred.

I find it interesting that the persons in the history of Psychology who attempted to deal with the issues of this black box (Freud, Jung, Rogers, Maslow...to name a few) have largely been marginalized in educational systems. Yet, Freud's work is nothing short of titanic. Sure, it appears he was hung up on the "sex" stuff...but even if you throw out his focus on sex (his definition was not the same as our definition of sex) his work on defense mechanisms, dreams, transference and free association are still used today in one form or another. Rogers name is almost never brought up, yet every person who works in the medical professions is working from a Rogerian helping perspective. I could go on and on here.

Why? I my view it is because Psychology has, maybe, tried too hard to be a "hard science". It is good to do research. It is good to observe how we are so easily conditioned. It is good to study brain scans to understand where our emotions originate from. It is good to understand the underlying elements of why cognitive therapies, including the mindfulness techniques, work so well for so many. But it also has to be acknowledged that there are aspects to the human thought processes that just are not easily manipulated variables in a lab. The trouble lies when we are steered away from exploring this area because of the stigma associated with "black box" investigations.

The good news is that eclectic views (views that are open to many different schools of thought in psychology) are steadily gaining ground as the best way to approach working within the field. We are coming to understand and accept that Psychoanalytic, Behaviorist, Personality, Social, Cognitive, Jungian, Rogerian, and on and on....Psychologies all have a place within a particular situations and contexts. This, in my view, represents true progress. Rather than playing the old, I am right and you are wrong game, scientists are learning to work together and acknowledge the various perspectives that make up one of the most complex and interesting disciplines that has ever been undertaken by humankind.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

No surprises here, but I agree with you, Jon. :)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Well...being a Jungian Psychologist sure seems a better fit for me than a "bean counter". Most of my bean counter cohorts could use a good Jungian Psychologist.
OH MY GOD!!! The beans didn't balance! The beans don't balance! Where did they go? What is the problem? WHO TOOK THE BEANS! WHO MOVED MY BEAN!
Heaven forbid if a red bean got mixed in with a greem bean. I've concluded that I work with a group of people stuck in a permanent neurosis. :roll:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by jonsjourney »

Heaven forbid if a red bean got mixed in with a greem bean. I've concluded that I work with a group of people stuck in a permanent neurosis. -Neo
I would be willing to bet that, in research terms, you would be considered an "outlier" in your profession. At the risk of overgeneralizing, I would think that "bean counters" are primarily interested in what is "concrete" and countable. Sometimes I actually laugh a bit as I imagine a water cooler conversation at Neo's office...

Neo: "Do you think that Jungian psychoanalysis on the projections of the shadow archetype creates inner strife or catharsis"?

Everyone Else: "Huh?...So anyway....this moron put his tax deductible IRA in column 41 instead of column 40....can you imagine the impact this is going to have"?

Neo: "How about them Ravens, eh"?

:wink:

Thank goodness for the JCF forums!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Thank goodness for the JCF forums!
Hey JJ, you should have been a witness to the meeting I had to go to yesterday. It would have been hilarious if I busted out with some Jungian psychology or better yet:

"So what major influences did occidental mythology; most notably Zoroastrianism; play in shaping the world religions of today?"

:shock:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Cindy B. »

Too funny, guys, and also true to some extent. :D

Yet it's healthiest for us psychologists and any others who are particularly psychologically-minded not to take ourselves too seriously in the scheme of things, and in line with this (and as a stress reliever), we professionals often poke fun at ourselves.

Cindy: "But tell me, Neo, not what you think but how you feel about these beans...What does the red bean mean to you? The green bean? What's the significance to you, if any, of a three bean salad?...What I hear you saying is that you have a longing to freely express your inner beanness. Here, take these Crayolas, Jon, and create a picture of this longing and what it means to you to be the bean you're meant to be." :wink:

Some of my favorites, though, are the established light bulb jokes:

Q: How many analysts does it take to change a light bulb?
A: How many do you think it takes?

Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Just one but the light bulb has to want to change.

Q: How many Freudians does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Two. One to change the bulb and one to hold the penis, I mean ladder!

Cindy B., MS (Mistress of Silliness)
Last edited by Cindy B. on Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Cindy or Jon: "But tell me, please, Neo, not what you think but how you feel about these beans...What does the red bean mean to you? The green bean? What's the significance to you, if any, of a three bean salad?...What I hear you saying is that you have a longing to freely express your inner beanness. Here, take these Crayolas, Neo, and create a picture of this longing and what it means to you to be the bean you're meant to be."
I can’t resist. :D
Beans are meant to be eaten. My life and the life of the bean are one, and by consuming the bean, I am granted life within this field of time. The color of the bean doesn’t matter; it is the life within the bean that counts. We are all beans within the salad of life.

Instead, we sort the beans, analyze the beans, and try to figure out why the beans are acting the way they do. And in the end it is all but the shadow of a hill of beans on a cave wall.
I actually cracked myself up typing this. :lol:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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