Psychology's Scorecard

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Has modern psychology, since 1890, contributed to the improvement or the corruption of society and of individual’s lives?

A:) Yes, modern psychology has improved society
4
33%
B:) modern psychology has had a small positive effect
1
8%
C:) It's about even
2
17%
D:) modern psychology has had a small negative effect
0
No votes
E:) we've had a hundred-twenty years of modern psychology - and the world is getting worse.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

:lol: 8)

Just voted in the poll after reading your bean-analysis Neoplato. :wink:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
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Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Neoplato wrote:I actually cracked myself up typing this. :lol:
I'm practicing self-control, Neoplato, and not commenting on the oneness of your beaningness so that noman doesn't come back to find that I've totally disrupted his excellent thread... My shadow is protesting, though, so what the heck--Ha!

(And you missed that I amended my original post and decided not to presumptuously tie Jon to me merely because he's a psych. student.)

Cindy


P.S. Yet I appreciate the opportunity to have enaged in a bit of humor this morning since for the past few days I've been in a slump. So, thanks, Neoplato, I needed that. :D
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

noman
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Post by noman »

What’s the difference between the staff and patients at a psychiatric hospital?

a.) The staff have keys
b.) Some of the patients get better and leave
c.) Not everyone of the patients believes he or she is God

Every profession has its in-group humor poking fun at themselves. But psychology probably has more of it. Clemsy posted the icon of all psychology jokes, “anyone who goes to see a psychiatrist needs to have his head examined.” Alan Watts commented on this line. He compared western psychology to Zen. He said on the one hand the line can be interpreted as saying that psychology is bogus and all psychologists are a bunch of charlatans. But you can look at it another way, he says. If a person believes there is something wrong with him then there is something wrong. Once the client reaches the point he thinks therapy is worthless and always was worthless – that’s when he’s cured. Watts said this is the way of Zen. Once a person is enlightened, once they reach the yonder shore, they discover there is no yonder shore. There is no division.

It all makes for a great deal of humor. I recall my visiting a Zen master once. He was in his robes - working a hotdog stand on the street. I asked him if he could make me one with everything. 8)

What do we expect from psychology? We expect it to have a net positive affect on society, and not be ‘a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.’

- NoMan

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

You, too, raise reasonable points from a certain perspective, noman, I agree. Yet I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts re: what substitute, if any, for psychology and the social sciences you would suggest when it comes to modern society. And thanks.

(And I'll share with you up front that I believe neither religion nor the hard sciences could fill this void.)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

noman
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Post by noman »

I can put in my two cents Cindy, but that’s about how much it’ll be worth.

What is there besides psychotherapy, neuroscience (hard science), and religion? I think all three have value in the right context. But really, I see psychotherapy as a religion. A person puts their faith in science and the scientific method to come up with the best solution. There’s nothing wrong with it – nor with religion. I guess my next question should be if religion has had a net positive effect over the same 120 year period.

Anyone care to answer that one?

- NoMan

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

Beans are meant to be eaten. My life and the life of the bean are one, and by consuming the bean, I am granted life within this field of time. The color of the bean doesn’t matter; it is the life within the bean that counts. We are all beans within the salad of life.

Instead, we sort the beans, analyze the beans, and try to figure out why the beans are acting the way they do. And in the end it is all but the shadow of a hill of beans on a cave wall. -Neo
I must perform a deep, respectful bow to my old friend...well done sir! You are a true Campbellite! But...watch out being one of those -ites...they don't do so well, biblically speaking. :wink:

Its hard to believe it has been almost a year now here at JCF's wonderful website! I think I shall post a commemorative thread!

Thanks Cindy, for the humor...and NoMan too...parity is a necessity!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

noma wrote:But really, I see psychotherapy as a religion.
This is going to sound particularly picky, noman, I know, yet while certain psychologies might share various features and functions with religion, to characterize psychology as "a religion" is simply erroneous. For example, psychology offers no cosmology, relies on no sacred texts, demands no worship, defines no moral code, etc. Apples and oranges. :wink:

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

richard silliker
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Post by richard silliker »

This is going to sound particularly picky, noman, I know, yet while certain psychologies might share various features and functions with religion, to characterize psychology as "a religion" is simply erroneous. For example, psychology offers no cosmology, relies on no sacred texts, demands no worship, defines no moral code, etc. Apples and oranges.

Cindy
BINGO

RS

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

...and not much theology either... :lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

noman
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Post by noman »

It’s not like apples and oranges. It’s more like papayas and mangos.


• Cosmology: the modern scientific view of the cosmos, or whatever religious view serves the purpose.

• Sacred Texts: the corpus of psychological literature and case studies

• Worship: The id, ego, superego, shadow, anima, animus, and archetypes correspond to the personified deities of mythology/religion, such as angels, devils, tricksters, mothers, wise old men, and the like. It isn’t worship in the traditional religious way. We don’t sacrifice lambs to them. But we recognize them, pay homage to them in our own way.

• Moral code: this does touch upon the ‘dark side’ of it. A person could become ‘better’ more functional and productive, and yet do it at the expense of morality.


Cindy – I don’t know nothin about this stuff. I just talk and have impressions. I see psychology as emerging out of religion and maintaining some of its characteristics. But it’s all very loose and open. People used to see a priest, preacher, rabbi, or imam. Now they have this other option. I remember reading Black Elk Speaks, the story told of what the end of the 19th century was like from the point of view of a Sioux medicine man. At one point in the book he said a Native American didn’t trust that white man because he was a ‘Sunday doctor’. It took me us few seconds to realize he meant ‘a preacher’. You see – the healing of the soul was equated with healing. And therapists do try to heal – or assist in healing. I just think its interesting to consider the historical background of these professions. There’s no judgment here I hope.

My answer to the second question, what religion has done for us in the last 120 years would be the same. We’ve about broke even.

Thanks for your responses everyone.

- NoMan

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

noman wrote:What’s the difference between the staff and patients at a psychiatric hospital?

a.) The staff have keys

- NoMan
Ha! That is the best I've heard so far. :lol:

To be honest my stance is much like Neoplatos, that all this analysing of the human psyche leaves prescious little time to do what we here for. Yet, when we get our minds tied up in a knot we need someone we can trust to help us figure out what is what and why and how etc. It would be impossible to argue that psychologists en mass failed to contribute to our understanding of how the mind works, but it is equally difficult to argue that they helped the evolution of the human psyche. Jung was onto something good when he approached human spirituality with scientific method, collecting data, compiling empirical evidence of case studies and so forth.

So, what could replace a psychologist when one is in trouble? The love of widsom could - me think. Short of having the mental stamina to learn philosophy - or the means to do so - a trustworthy person who is devoted to the well being of the troubled person (like a priest, rabbi, mullah, monk,village elder, nun etc.) should do the trick. Perhaps psychologists choose their occupation and spend years having their heads burried in books because they are the type of people who want to be trusted and wish to show their devotion to the mental well being of humanity in general. That's why they "have the keys"? :wink:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Noman Wrote:
I see psychology as emerging out of religion and maintaining some of its characteristics. But it’s all very loose and open. People used to see a priest, preacher, rabbi, or imam. Now they have this other option. I remember reading Black Elk Speaks, the story told of what the end of the 19th century was like from the point of view of a Sioux medicine man.
Interestingly, in "Myths to Live By" Joe reconciles the two points of view between psychology and shamanism. When someone in the "tribe" shows signs of schizophrenia, off he goes to the "shaman" to cure him.

Joe quotes a paper by Dr. Julian Silverman "Shamans and Acute Schizophrenia" written in 1967.
in a culture that does not provide referential guides for comprehending this kind of crisis experience, the individual (schizophrenic) typically undergoes an intensification of his suffering over and above his original anxieties.
Joe outlines an instance where the "cure" is isolation, fasting, and meditation. Sound familiar? Jesus in the desert, Buddha under the tree, etc...

Here is another quote Joe uses from a shaman:
The only true wisdom lives far from mankind, out in the great loneliness, and can be reached only through suffering. Privation and suffering alone open the mind of a man to all that is hidden to others.
So for me, IMHO, true psychology and true spirituallity (I dare not use the "R" word). are pretty much the same thing. :D
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Evinnara wrote:...a trustworthy person who is devoted to the well being of the troubled person (like a priest, rabbi, mullah, monk,village elder, nun etc.) should do the trick...
In a nutshell, Evinnra, you've captured the point of it all, this thing that we've been mulling over called "psychotherapy" or "the helping professions," and the one word that sums this up is relationship. Theories, techniques, etc. are actually beside the point, because what ultimately helps most is reliably being there for the other person, and letting him know that someone does care no matter what and that he's entitled to be heard and cherished; that is, what most has the power to heal or to help alleviate suffering is establishing a genuine relationship. Nothing would please me more than to have no need for the helping professions, but for this to occur in our modern society, family members and various significant others need to step up to the plate, and religious institutions have to do away with prejudice and unconditionally reach out to all. It's this pervasive sense of alienation and disconnectedness from each other that does the most damage, and re-establishing a personal connection or offering the opportunity for a genuine personal relationship is all it takes in most cases, and for any of us.

Cindy
Last edited by Cindy B. on Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

So for me, IMHO, true psychology and true spirituallity (I dare not use the "R" word). are pretty much the same thing. -Neo
Hmmm...I may have to address this further a little later today or tomorrow, but while I acknowledge the similarities, I respectfully disagree.

In my view psychology is a discipline in which the primary concern is discovering why we think the way we do. Psychology strives for scientific investigation in order to learn "facts" about the mind.

Religion or spirituality...or even our understanding of mythology, is a philosophy of why we are here or the human experience. Spirituality strives to provide comfort to a worried mind in a chaotic universe. While this is a shared goal in psychology, particularly counseling psychology, most psychological traditions, outside of the current Transpersonal Psychological Schools, avoid the spiritual "black box".

What they share in many ways is the idea of accord. Both seek a form of accord between the individual and their environment. They are all kissing cousins, though, in my view. I see a sort of trajectory like this...

Life....
Consciousness....
Mythology....
Language....
Religion....
Philosophy....
Science....
Psychology....
Spirituality/Accord....ie: 42, or coming to our own understanding of the relevance of our existence.

Obviously this is not definitive...or comprehensive, but I hope it serves as an initial attempt to define a trajectory of the evolution of consciousness in the mind of life forms here on earth. Make no assumptions about the hierarchy, either. An argument could probably be made that any one particular aspect is as valid as any other. I am just flying from the seat of my pants on a Saturday morning....now...more coffee!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

jonsjourney wrote:In my view psychology is a discipline in which the primary concern is discovering why we think the way we do. Psychology strives for scientific investigation in order to learn "facts" about the mind.
The entire field doesn't fall under this umbrella, Jon. As an undergraduate psychology student, your curriculum is skewed toward those psychological disciplines rooted primarily in the scientific method; it was the same for me, too, many moons ago, and academia is inherently biased in this way at the undergraduate level. Not until you enter graduate level studies will you be offered the opportunity to learn about the art or actual practice of therapy or counseling, and unless you decide to focus in a clinically-based or counseling-based discipline, even then your exposure and education will be mimimal along these lines. If you go further with your psychological studies, Jon, you'll have to make a choice--a practical psychological discipline or an experimental/academia-based discipline. Just remember to follow your bliss. :)

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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