Baptism and Anointment

Share thoughts and ideas regarding what can be done to meet contemporary humanity's need for rites of initiation and passage.

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twokay
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Post by twokay »

Did Mr. Campbell undertake any examination of the use, power and nature of these two rituals. And how or what would such things be attributed to, historically and metaphorically.



Alfred

Phil Lucier
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Post by Phil Lucier »

Baptism and annointing would certainly fall under the context of initiation. Joseph Campbell certainly talked to that subject a lot.

Leaving an old life behind and beginning a new life, exemplified here, are rights passages.

cadfael
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Post by cadfael »

Having had been a long time Christian in my past I know that different denominations of the Christian church views baptism differently and that has to do with the after life and how the ritual should be performed.I think that should be left to the Christians own interpretation.Though it seems that some Christians have no concept of interpretation.

I agree that Baptism is an initiation ritual.But more than that it is a ritual of death and ressurection-spiritually that is.

I can remember when I was baptised in the Methodist church many years ago.I was fifteen then.I was not really in tune with what was going on with the ritual,so it did not really affect me psychologically.In otherwords,there was no real change in me.In truth the change had occured long before.Funny I distinctly remember being asked by the minister if I was going to give up sin and so forth and according to the ritual I had to say,Yes.But in my mind I was thinking something like how am I going to do that.Gee now in the ritual I've just committed a sin saying that I was giving up sin.Oh simply put there has to be a change in the person psychogically first and if that is not there then the ritual means zilch.In my case I had the change already,but I did not really understand the ritual and the bit about giving up all my wonderful sinning was just not possible.


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cadfael
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Post by cadfael »

As to Joseph Campbell speaking of Baptism I do not recall him speaking of it during the Power of Myth Series.That is what I am mainly familiar with-that series.But he definitly talks about inward change during those interviews,so you could say that he speaks of the essential concept that underlies baptism.As to the annointing bit,I cannot comment on that as I do not even have any knowledge on that subject.

Cadfael

wiliamjohnmeegan
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Post by wiliamjohnmeegan »

Baptism is symbolic to the waters of Creation as outlined in the first chapter of Genesis. Those that study the text will soon learn that Yahweh & Elohym: the two gods of the Old Testament are the waters of Creations.

Example: Take the name Elohym and break it down to its lowest common denominators and you will fine that it is coded with the formula for Pi.

Elohym's letters give a collective totals to 86, which gives us the lower common denominator of #5.

Yahweh letters total to 26, which reduce to #8

These two numbers are sequenced in the Golden Ratio. This #5 & #8 scenario is seen all over the first chapter of Genesis.

The Golden Ratio is the key to all organic life on earth. Baptism therefore is the drowning oneself in world knowledge and emerging from it as the master. The danger of this is that the individual will get stuck in that material knowledge and will never become the master. In otherwords he will surely drown and die spiritually.

John the Baptist represents the OLD TESTAMENT, from which the New Testament come. Only by drowning yourself in the Old Testament can you see the birth of Christianity. Mary the Jewish girl that was a virgin to spirituality saw the spiritual truth and gave birth to it in her consciousness. Mary represent the psyche and Joseph represent the body the alleged father of spirituality. Of course the Christ Child is Himself the offspring of God.

It is only by studying the knowledge of our fathers that we can become the masters of the renewed knowledge of God. But what is realized is that though the Old Knowledge is lost in the literature of antiquity the Renewed Knowledge can still come from it. The paradox is that the new is the same as the old before it was lost.

Knowledge like time is liguid and runs though our collective fingers. Like the painter or musician, which have to learn how to play the instrument and study and learn all the old melodies and music scores of those that came before him/her: they drown in it to get their master's degree. Then they are sent out into the world to break the rules they were taught: only by breaking the rules can anyone become the master. Is this not what Christ did? - Is this not why he was crucified?

In otherwords they buried his teachings esoterically into historical and religious literature where it would be forgotten for eons and generations of humans would be lost in the darkness of materialism until on the third day another would raise Christ from his heumetically sealed tomb.

Is it not interesting that we are now living in the 3rd day? Is this not the 3rd millenium from the birth of Christ? The psalms tell us that a thousand years is as a day with the lord.

Cordially,

Bill Meegan

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wiliamjohnmeegan on 2005-09-07 21:36 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wiliamjohnmeegan on 2005-09-07 21:37 ]</font>

bodhibliss
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Post by bodhibliss »

Baptism is mentioned here and there in Campbell's writings, but only in passing.

However, Phil and Cadfael hit the nail on the head when they speak of it as an inititation rite; Cadfael elaborates further on the death-and-resurrection aspects of the rite - and, indeed, to be baptized was, in a sense, to be "buried with Christ."

Campbell relates to the initiatory funtion of the rite:
Few of us have any inkling of the sense of the rite of baptism, which was our initiation into our Chuch. Nevertheless, it clearly appears in the words of Jesus: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

The popular interpretation of baptism is that "it washes away original sin," with emphasis rather on cleansing than on the rebirth idea. This is a secondary interpretation. Or if the traditional birth image is remembered, nothing is said of an antecedent marriage. Mythological symbols, however, have to be followed through all their implications before they open out the full system of correspondences through which they represent, by analogy, the millenial adventure of the soul.

The Hero with a Thousand Faces, p. 351
Campbell is looking at this symbol from a mythological perspective - and not determining church doctrine. Baptism certainly fills the initiatory funtion Phil, Cadfael, and Campbell describe

- but stepping outside the Christian framework and looking at baptism as a mythic symbol, one that will allow this motif to "open out the full system of correspondences through which they represent ... the millennial adventure of the soul," opens the door for more abstract, esoteric renderings - like the interpretation Bill provides, which deepens and enriches the image.

Campbell takes a playful approach himself when discussing John the Baptist:
And the rite of baptism that he preached, whatever its meaning at that time might have been, was an ancient rite coming down from the old Sumerian temple city Eridu, of the water God Ea, "God of the House of Water," whose symbol was the tenth sign of the Zodiac, Capricron (a composite beast with the foreparts of a goat and body of a fish), which is the sign into which the sun enters at the winter solstice. In the Hellenistic period, Ea was called Oannes, which is in Greek Ioannes, Latin Johannes, Hebrew Yohanon,English John. Several scholars have suggested, therefore, that there never was a John or Jesus, but only a water-god and a sun-god. The chronicle of Josephus seems to guarantee John, however; and I shall leave it to the reader to imagine how he came both by the god's name and by his rite.

The episode of baptism, then, whether taken as a mythological motif or a biographical event, stands for the irrevocable passage of a threshold.

The Masks of God, Vol. III: Occidental Mythology, p. 349-350
Tickles the brain a little bit ...

namaste
bodhibliss


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bodhi_Bliss on 2005-09-13 10:01 ]</font>

Raphael
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Post by Raphael »

On 2005-09-07 21:24, wiliamjohnmeegan wrote:
Baptism is symbolic to the waters of Creation as outlined in the first chapter of Genesis. Those that study the text will soon learn that Yahweh & Elohym: the two gods of the Old Testament are the waters of Creations.

Example: Take the name Elohym and break it down to its lowest common denominators and you will fine that it is coded with the formula for Pi.

Elohym's letters give a collective totals to 86, which gives us the lower common denominator of #5.

Yahweh letters total to 26, which reduce to #8

These two numbers are sequenced in the Golden Ratio. This #5 & #8 scenario is seen all over the first chapter of Genesis.
1·61803 39887 49894 84820 458...

Is that the sequence?
What are the sequences in the Bible?
I would suggest that 5 being the sign of man made in the image of God and 8 the number of infinity represent man/god in an infinite creation.
The Golden Ratio is the key to all organic life on earth.
666 is organic.
It is Carbon 12. (6p + 6n + 6e)
ALL life needs Carbon 12.
Hydrogen is an hermaphrodite, (1p + 1e, no nucleus. It makes up about 90% of the Universe. It is necessary for DNA.
It is a God. Or does our God produce it?
This is organic mythology.

Baptism therefore is the drowning oneself in world knowledge and emerging from it as the master. The danger of this is that the individual will get stuck in that material knowledge and will never become the master. In otherwords he will surely drown and die spiritually.
Baptism is a rebirth of the mind.
It is knowledge learned merging with the wisdom of life experience learned through myth and symbols.

...The paradox is that the new is the same as the old before it was lost.
How true and worth highlighting.

Knowledge like time is liguid and runs though our collective fingers...Then they are sent out into the world to break the rules they were taught: only by breaking the rules can anyone become the master...Is this not what Christ did? - Is this not why he was crucified?
Really?
You believe by breaking the rules you become Master?
How lost you must be.
Discipline of spirit, action and deed, doing what is right is what is difficult for a humanity full of desire.

Christ spoke out against those breaking the rules, that is why the messenger always gets crucified. (MLK and Kennedy)

In otherwords they buried his teachings esoterically into historical and religious literature where it would be forgotten for eons and generations of humans would be lost in the darkness of materialism until on the third day another would raise Christ from his heumetically sealed tomb.
Yes I too Bill believe there is a THEY.
Is it not interesting that we are now living in the 3rd day? Is this not the 3rd millenium from the birth of Christ? The psalms tell us that a thousand years is as a day with the lord.
With those thoughts in mind, what if the book of revelations, containing the Apocalypse is not prophecy but the retelling of a cyclical event?

What I believe a baptism to symbolize in the macrocosmic world is explained in this post.

http://www.jcf.org/new/forum/viewtopic. ... 9&forum=27

Namaste,

Raphael
_____________
ENERGY = GOD
Thus the primordial Law of Thermodynamics says...
God can be neither created or destroyed, he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for making vain graven images and it is called Entropy.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Raphael on 2006-02-02 08:21 ]</font>

twokay
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Post by twokay »

Divine Earth = Christ

Christ? Was he the "word" made flesh
or
the "world" made flesh?

?

twokay
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Post by Guest »


On 2005-09-07 21:24, wiliamjohnmeegan wrote:

Knowledge like time is liguid and runs though our collective fingers...Then they are sent out into the world to break the rules they were taught: only by breaking the rules can anyone become the master...Is this not what Christ did? - Is this not why he was crucified?
On 2005-10-08 09:59 Raphael replied to wiliamjohnmeegan:

Really?
You believe by breaking the rules you become Master?
How lost you must be.
Discipline of spirit, action and deed, doing what is right is what is difficult for a humanity full of desire.

Christ spoke out against those breaking the rules, that is why the messenger always gets crucified. (MLK and Kennedy)
Maybe not breaking the rules as such. But rather confronting the laws of nature. Maybe it means breaking the mold of this reality we are living in? Perhaps that is the “rule” the Gods and deities broke and reached beyond this material realm. Perhaps questioning this material existence is one of the rules the deities and gods broke too?

It is also believed that the Greek Gods broke the rules and that is why they became Gods. I read it in a book by Roberto Calasso, titled “Literature and the Gods”. I haven’t read much more of the chapter, but from what I can gather, the Greek Gods broke the rules to fulfil a desire they were yearning for. Perhaps our souls are yearning for the “light” or for the fruits of knowledge and so we need to fulfil its desire. Is it not so?

Perhaps we must question to find knowledge. There’s just so much to learn. Amazing isn’t it!?



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Post by creekmary »

I read about "living water" and cleansing and so forth on the net off a Jewish history/theology site for a study group one time. I don't think anyone knew what the terms refered to at the time.

"Living water" refered to water that moves, a stream or river as opposed to pool or pond. All living water is believed to originate in Eden, which is why I think it was supposed to be purifying. Being close to that perfect place and time.

I think I understand. If you could not go back to a place you loved, and could only stand outside the gate and look inside, any thing that came from that place would be almost like touching it. Standing in water that flowed from that place would have an essence of the place.

Jesus refered to himself, or maybe his message, as the water of life, living water, having the power of purification from sin instead of a literal washing and purification.

Susan

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Post by creekmary »

"The Word" made flesh. I considered that term, "the word", to be the concept of divine. "The Word" that cannot be spoken. The Great Unknown and all that sort of thing. In the beginning, was "The Word", nothing else, then began creation.

I forget who said Jesus was "the word" made flesh, exemplified. Maybe he said it himself. A glimpse of the great unknown/unknowable brought into the material world from the spiritual and trying to explain the concept.

Susan

twokay
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Post by twokay »

The thought I had was that it was more than the word but the world....
the world made flesh as though the earth as a being transformed into a human or human form
the earth made manifest... not necessarily male nor female but a divine earth being. I thought thus that Christ was a divine human for that reason being all/earth given human dimension.
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creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

From what I have read that I recall, the...well...word "word" is a translation of the Greek "logos" (which is a translation of a Hebrew word that I forget) that stands for the concept of the power that drives the universe. God or The Divine or whatever one would want to call it. So that's how I have looked at it. That he was a human manifestation of that force.

I like your concept of one-ness with the earth and consideration as a living being. The way we treat the earth sometimes I wonder if we would not be considered some sort of harmful parasite or type of virus that might some day get "treated".

Susan

twokay
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Post by twokay »

Thankyou
So you say word is logos in Greek
but perhaps universe in Hebrew
Interesting
Well that would mesh nicely with the
world or globe or universe aspect

The universe made flesh or the force of the
universe made flesh.
The universe though in its emmensity is not something I can really relate to...
to much
but world or globe and some folks meaning for universe is actually world

interesting
thankyou

twokay
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