The Purpose of Religion

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Waka
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Post by Waka »

I get really upset with people and religion. Yes, religion is a part of society, but it should be more myth then it is what "God" wants. People need mytholgy in their lives but not needing to control of their lives. Wasn't mythology first created to explain the unexplainable not to tell you how to live your life? I feel a person should have control over their life then what the "Lord" tells them to do. Now to thinkg about the view of haveing a lord is really an archaic one. People take religion too far. Why do you need to know what would Jesus do to know how to live your lives. Religion should be more about a fulfillment in one's life. This might be why I am so cynical about Religion. Its like Marx said "Religion is the Opiate of the Masses" I guess the real part of this is the evagelicalism of Christianity. I'm just sick at people who let religion control their lives because it is seem as the one and only view a person can have. I can see the purpose of myth but I really dont see the purpose of a religion. What is the reall purpose of religion? It seems to be all capital but is there anything else?

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Waka on 2006-04-01 12:28 ]</font>

SteveC
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Post by SteveC »

I disagree. Myth is the illusion. Faith is the only thing that is solid.

Myth is primarily about self-glorification. The problem with religions (as separate from faith) is that they fall into the same trap of self-glorification.

The "opiate of the masses" is simply an insight that you have not grasped yet. People are not faithful to "religion" they are faithful to God.

All of society is hierarchial, because there is a constant stream of young and old. Older people have made their mistakes and have learned from them, younger people are making mistakes, and do not understand fully their choices. (They may also have parents that are less wise, too, so they have more errors to overcome than just the ones they were taught in school.)

Society is organized around certain ideas. Some of those ideas are good, some are bad. The challenge is sorting them out, which we all must do an an individual. There is no "system" that makes people wise, except perhaps experience.

Obviously, if you deny the existence of God, then you cannot be faithful. Marx describe religion as an opiate because he wanted workers to rise up and kill their masters. He was a war-monger. Some of his economic theory ideas are very good, but he basically just says everything Adam Smith said, but in a less flattering light.

In any case, faith frees people spititually. Politics has the possibility of freeing people physically, but it has not been perfected. We still live in a slave system, we are wage slaves. In many ways it is worse than physical bondage.

The thing we are mostly enslaved by are lies. With faith, one is in the world, but not of it. Those who are of the world are enslaved by it. Fear, pride and greed enslaves them.

People of faith get attacked a lot because others do not like to have their hypocrisy pointed out. People who are hypocrites get attacked a lot because they are hypocrites. So which is which? Sorting out that conflict is not very easy, but when Moses led the slaves to freedom and was given the commandments, God pretty much told us everything we needed to know. Because of youth and inexperience, it takes a while to fully understand the message.

Every religion is built on the same wisdom, but people struggle to understand wisdom. Everybody's faith journey is similar. We're all born stupid.
You can only see the height of a mountain from its valley.


The radical myth towards which the helix aspires is beyond the desire for money or power, yet which has greater returns than all the power and money in the world could not achieve.

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Post by Clemsy »

Hi Waka! Once again you ask a very fundamental and powerful question: What is the real purpose of religion? You phrased it in such a way that assumes that thre are 'false' purposes of religion.

That is perceptive, methinks.
I get really upset with people and religion.
One imagines that it is these false purposes that upsets you. That would depend on turning the statement into a question: What gets you really upset.

One factor that may be involved is the tendency of those who believe their religious rules are meant to not only regulate their own lives, but yours also.

You might say this is the sociological function of myth run amok.
Yes, religion is a part of society, but it should be more myth then it is what "God" wants.
This is, perhaps, connected to the above. If one agrees with Campbell, then religion is myth. It's what people do with the myth that becomes an issue. For example, Christian tradition contains numerous interpretations of what 'God wants'. It's the exclusivity that causes problems, no? Each believe it has the only true answer.

Such a situation allows those addicted to Power to gain influential position, so you get the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons.

Scientology's L. Ron Hubbard also falls into this category, IMO.

But it also allows those who operate from the heart a framework within which to nurture spiritual growth, both for themselves and others.
Wasn't mythology first created to explain the unexplainable not to tell you how to live your life?
I don't think so. Mythology wasn't 'created.' Myth is, as Cambpell said, the public dream clothed by local, environmental conditions. Myth connects people to the world around them. Nature myths fit traditional people into the their environment. The myths of civilization (think Sumer), based quite a bit on astronomical obvservations, provided a model which became a metaphor for social structures.

These things weren't made so much as evolved.
I feel a person should have control over their life then what the "Lord" tells them to do.
Good thing you're a child of the West! The great Western model is that of the Arthurian Tradition where you choose where to enter the Dark Forest, alone, on the Grail Quest.
Why do you need to know what would Jesus do to know how to live your lives.
Waka, Christ is a good template by which to judge your own actions, a wonderful way to work the myth. Christ is infinite compassion. By that measure, we learn who we are in comparison: What are the limits of your compassion?

Important question.
Religion should be more about a fulfillment in one's life.
Indeed. That's precisely what it should be.
This might be why I am so cynical about Religion.
Don't be soured by those who are organized, loud and hogging the microphone, the so-called religious right. Their 'religion' is about power, not personal fulfillment.
Its like Marx said "Religion is the Opiate of the Masses"
I think Marx was just a bit off here. Religion can be used as an opiate for the masses. This is a political issue, not a religious one, and one reason why the power of religion was seperated from the power of politics by the American Founders. Religion can easily be used as a social shrink wrap to control the population.

The social function of myth manipulated, as it were.
I guess the real part of this is the evagelicalism of Christianity. I'm just sick at people who let religion control their lives because it is seem as the one and only view a person can have.
But Waka, we all choose a model to live by. We all make sense of the universe in our own way. If one lives according to an evangelical christian model, and is enhanced thereby, what's the problem?
I can see the purpose of myth but I really dont see the purpose of a religion.
They are one and the same. It's all in the interpretation and application and that's a human issue, not a religious one.

One should be left alone with however they view, relate to, or identify with the Great Mystery. It's only when coercion enters the picture that one must stand up and say, "No!"

Those who consider inhibiting that coercion a violation of their religious rights make me think bad words. <IMG SRC="/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif">

Cheers,
Michael



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Michael on 2006-04-02 09:55 ]</font>

nandu
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Post by nandu »

Waka,

I think you are using the word "Religion" in the sense of "Organised Religion". In that case, I agree with you. Organised religion has moved away from myth. Instead of allowing myth to be interpreted by each individual, they have imposed an official interpretation, the disavowment which will make you an infidel.

My advice is: throw aside that religion! For example, if you are a Christian, forsake the Church and its tenets. Discover Christ for yourself. Read the Bible as a glorious myth. Experience the bliss! It's out there.

And please, read all of Marx's words before drawing inferences. What he said was:

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. "

I couldn't agree more.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

Waka
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Post by Waka »

First off I am Atheist. I see myth and religion as made up, but it is a part of who we are. Therefore I try to understand it as best I can. I guess religion is just the practice of mythology. But one real problem of religion is the belief system. There is a few good lines from the movie Dogma that states it really well believe it or not.
...humanity took a good idea and,
like always, built a belief structure on it....it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. That was one thing the Man hated - still life. He wanted everyone to be as enthralled with living as He was.
-Dogma-
The man refers to christ.

People just take their ideas too far; turn them into beliefs and forcing them on people. I was reading about when Charlemange would take over a group of pagans, he would allow them two choices, Live under a Christian life or die.

And to bring up what SteveC said I don't feel like there is really a God to be faithfull to. Or just not the sense of a controller. Plus you really shouldn't have to be loyal to a "God" or really anyone else to have fulfillment.

Can I man be spiritual and not religious? Because if you can then I am. I don't really have faith but I have a feeling and a comprehension of an underlying mysterious spiritual presence. But Im not really loyal to it or worship it or "believe" in it.

What other types of religion are there then "Organized Religion"? I guess a person can have his or her own ideas. But then wouldn't they just fit into being non-denominational.

So I guess when I get one question ansered more just pop up. Well I'd like to hear more. Thanks for all the input.
Better than a thousand useless words is one word that gives peace.- Buddha<br>Let yourself be free. :-)

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Post by A J »

On 2006-04-03 21:56, Waka wrote:

Can I man be spiritual and not religious? Because if you can then I am. I don't really have faith but I have a feeling and a comprehension of an underlying mysterious spiritual presence. But Im not really loyal to it or worship it or "believe" in it.
Absolutely! Yes, you can.
So I guess when I get one question ansered more just pop up.
And isn't that what makes life fascinating??

For many years of my adult life I opposed organized religion. Even now, I still agree with many of your complaints against it.

I have recently returned to the formal practice of its rituals, though - much to the dismay of many of my "enlightened" friends, who do not understand why I have chosen to actively participate in this group, which is devoted, among other things, to serving others. And within the group there are more than a few who never questioned, and are wary of any lessons I might possibly have learned on the "outside."

But, before I returned, I actively explored the myths of other cultures, reading most of Joeseph Campbell's books, as well as the works of other comparative mythologists. And, in relation to that, I studied Jungian psychology at the same time.

The poet, T. S. Eliot wrote, "...the end of all our exploring should be to return to the place where we started, and know it for the first time." Much of Campbell's writing concerns the hero's "Return."

But for you, that will be a later concern, after having taken the journeys of your own life.

So, I am not suggesting that you ought to do anything different from what you are doing right now. You are wise to explore. Don't stop asking questions, or realizing that their answers lead to more. Don't cut your journey short. You seem to be on a valid path. Just follow where it leads.

AJ
"Sacred space and sacred time and something joyous to do is all we need. Almost anything then becomes a continuous and increasing joy."

A Joseph Campbell Companion: Reflections on the Art of Living

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Post by nandu »

Waka,

Organised religions are those religions which have a certain set of tenets you "must" follow and a certain set of things you "must" believe in. If you disagree, you are out - an infidel and a sinner. The traditional levantine religions are good examples.

But if you take the Eastern religions, you are allowed freedom of thought within a certain framework. For instance, I am a Hindu, and I can honestly say that I have my own belief system which is not prescribed by any religious authority. And I am STILL a Hindu.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

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Post by CarmelaBear »

Hello All,

Whenever I think of the religious sensibiltity, I think of the people who have lost or never formed any faith in other people or the reality of life as it is experienced. Once the real world becomes entirely untrustworthy, you have only your imagination and the imagination of those who sound trustworthy.

I trust Joseph Campbell. His skepticism makes sense to me and I trust his faith. It may be my greatest weakness. I don't know. It resembles, I think, the weakness of those who believe in Buddha, Christ, Mohammed, Moses, and anyone other fellow with an illustrious vision. Men are a force of nature and they do dominate, don't they?

Joe Campbell lives through his work, and I feel comforted by his insight. I feel no such sense of confidence about the work of the Buddha, the Christ, Mohammed, or any other man who ever lived and breathed upon this holy and sacred earth. I am deeply disappointed that no woman seems to be able to speak with the power of such men as Campbell.


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SteveC
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Post by SteveC »

On 2006-04-03 21:56, Waka wrote:
And to bring up what SteveC said I don't feel like there is really a God to be faithfull to. Or just not the sense of a controller. Plus you really shouldn't have to be loyal to a "God" or really anyone else to have fulfillment.

Can I man be spiritual and not religious? Because if you can then I am. I don't really have faith but I have a feeling and a comprehension of an underlying mysterious spiritual presence. But Im not really loyal to it or worship it or "believe" in it.

What other types of religion are there then "Organized Religion"? I guess a person can have his or her own ideas. But then wouldn't they just fit into being non-denominational.

So I guess when I get one question ansered more just pop up. Well I'd like to hear more. Thanks for all the input.
Without God, nothing can make sense. At least that is what I have found.

And I am sympathetic to your complaints regarding "organized religion" but man is organized by politics and economics, too, so the idea of living without organization is impossible. The young are always born into a world that is ordered by the previous generation. If God exists, then that would be a pretty significant thing to organize around, and without God these other systems do not work properly.

Certainly one can be spiritual without being religious, but it is an apples and oranges thing. For most people religion is something you wind-up on Sunday; it really isn't a driving force in their lives. It is more like a dormant seed, waiting for the sun and rain of Spring.

Also, religion is a burden. (Christ called it a sword.) It is a challenge we give to ourselves, it sets a perpetually higher standard. Humanism stops. One does not have to love their enemy, sacrifice themselves, or really accept anything that is unpleasant in their lives.

Certainly humanism is better than those who make great sacrifices for killing. The war-mongers give everything to the Devil and nothing to God.

God gives us a perfect world, but many cannot see it because they are trapped in their own thinking. The reason the prophets sound insane is that so much of what passes for "normal" is absurd.

Take Fort Knox for example. We dig into the earth for the gold. Take the gold and put it into a room, and then guard the gold for all eternity. It exists for no purpose whatsoever. What then was the purpose of taking the gold out of the ground? It's stupid. It's absurd. Yet people think of it as normal.
You can only see the height of a mountain from its valley.


The radical myth towards which the helix aspires is beyond the desire for money or power, yet which has greater returns than all the power and money in the world could not achieve.

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Post by NathanGear »

"One does not have to love their enemy"

Sorry, but one should have love in his heart for all mankind.

Yes, you have to engage the enemy, sometimes arrest the enemy, sometimes even kill the enemy. But even in these cases you should have love and sorrow for them.

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Post by nandu »

SEE GOD IN ALL
I have now come to a stage of realization in which I see that God is walking in every human form and manifesting Himself alike through the sage and the sinner, the virtuous and the vicious. Therefore when I meet different people I say to myself, "God in the form of the saint, God in the form of the sinner, God in the form of the righteous, God in the form of the unrighteous."

GOD IS WITHIN YOU
Do you know what I see? I see Him as all. Men and other creatures appear to me only as hollow forms, moving their heads and hands and feet, but within is the Lord Himself.

- Sri Ramakrishna
Of course, you can live totally fulfilling lives without God also. It's a matter of choice.

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

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Post by Raphael »

On 2006-04-09 14:21, NathanGear wrote:
"One does not have to love their enemy"

Sorry, but one should have love in his heart for all mankind.

Yes, you have to engage the enemy, sometimes arrest the enemy, sometimes even kill the enemy. But even in these cases you should have love and sorrow for them.
Yes and sometimes this fulfills our obligation as being our 'brother's keeper'?

namaste

Raphael
ENERGY = GOD ... Share Him is the Message...<br>God can be neither created nor destroyed; he can only be transformed into other forms of God. However there is a penalty for committing sin, for transforming God and it is called Entropy.

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Post by Waka »

Thanks all fo the responses

Nadu,you talk about "God" as being all around us and within us. But what is the variation of your god and lets say the God the three main monotheistic religion. I know you live in India, so it seems like the God you are talking about is more Eastern instead of a Western view of God. I can agree a whole lot more with the Eastern religions then the Western religions. I live in the United States in a quaint conservative town but maybe one of the few liberal, but that is beside the point. Many of my friends are Asian, so I get a lot of influence from them. I guess it is the view of God that really bugs me. Unlike the Eastern religions, the Western ones see God as a Father. But with the Eastern religions God seems more like an universal life force( or whatever). But It seems like the God you are talking about is not really one in heaven looking down on your life.And please tell me what you think If I am getting any of this wrong.

I guess to really unify the conversation. An understanding of what God is when everyone is talking shoule really be said. One person's God is definitly not mine. So I get what some people say but then some people talk of a completly differnt view. So another part of the conversation I add is What is God to you? Because people have had different experiences and different backgrounds. Im sure one person in America and one in the Far East will have different views. So to make the conversation more universal What is God to you?
Thanks again
Better than a thousand useless words is one word that gives peace.- Buddha<br>Let yourself be free. :-)

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Post by NathanGear »

Is God truely the father of mankind and the universe? Who knows. Everything certainly seems to have a rational scientific explaination. There doesn't seem to be proof that God needed to be around at the start. But as Sagan said "Absence of proof is not proof of absence." Either way, arguing about God as the Father certainly seems to creat more strife and friction between people and nations than needed. (And well actually, not to split hairs or anything, but in the scriptures of my faith, Sophia technically was resposible for bringing the physical world into being, but on the other hand she's an emination of God...)

Now not all of us Cristians all belive the same thing. I am a gnostic christian, George Bush is United Methodist (who attends an Episcopalian Church). We are both Christians but our faiths are fairly alien to each other. Geroge Bush has a schoolmarmish view of God; lots of "do not"'s, very stern. As a gnostic, I hold a faith similar to many Eastern religions. For me faith is about finding the god in my own self, and achieving a heaven here on Earth, in this life. God is a conciousness and a connectivity to nature/reality, that is there for anyone to find within themselves. And to me God expresses itself through various different names, so Hinduism and Buddhism et cetera do not in anyway threaten my faith, like other Christians can be. As long as love is there and nature is there and consciousness-expansion is there, it makes no differnce what a religion calls God or how God expressed culturally.

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nandu
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Post by nandu »

I had given that quote from Sri Ramakrishna to illustrate the nature of the mystic experience. We may call it "Divine Rapture", but I think it goes beyond pain and pleasure. I have not had the fortune to experience it, but by all accounts it is a mind blowing experience: the moment of time when you find the universe flowing through you. Joan of Arc experienced it, So did Mira Bai. Joan led France to victory, Mira Bai created a whole tradition. What is interesting is that each of these women interpreted their experience based on the religions they grew up with. For Joan, God talked to her personally: Mira could conjure up her divine lover, Krishna. Both of these women had tragic deaths but ended up as saints in their respective countries.

If you look at it, all the prophets must have had this revelation too. They wander off into the forests and come back with an experience impossible to communicate. But of course, in the end they end up being institutionalised.

It doesn't matter whether God is up there in the sky or within you: the experience is entirely personal. Organised religion does not give this experience. It gives certain tenets to live by, which if you fail to observe, you become an outcast.

Whether or not to go down the spiritual path is entirely a matter of choice, however (IMHO).

Nandu.
Loka Samastha Sukhino Bhavanthu

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