Consciousness

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Jufa, my reply became lengthy and somewhat off topic, so I decided to message you privately!

Cheers,
Clemsy
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Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

jufa wrote:

And so, this leads to a second question. When individuals speak from the Spirit aspect of Joseph's messages, does it provoke questions of "Do you have a question?"


jufa
Jufa,

Certainly, when one relates the Spirit aspect of mythological or religious themes it ought not provoke a question, rather an acceptance. That is why my previous message was a quote and nothing more.

Evinnra

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Post by Clemsy »

Hi Evinnra!

"When individuals speak from the Spirit aspect of Joseph's messages," one can, indeed, respond with a question. One may 'accept' that another knows the 'spirit aspect' of Campbell's work, but one doesn't have to agree with it, or necessarily understand the perspective from which the statement comes.

Oh, yes. Question. Question everything!

Cheers,
Clemsy
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jufa
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Post by jufa »

If mythological and religious themes are to be accepted as truth, does this mean the one accepting such themes knows the origin of both myth and religion because they are in a constant state of meditation and live from the Spirit of the awareness of why myth and religion are essential to mankind?

Or does the study of myth and religion necessitate questions in order for acceptance of them to be known exclusively by the seeker for Spirit enlightenment?

jufa

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Post by Ruiz »

Hi Everybody!

I decided to see what my fellow associates were up to and discovered this thread of discussion!

tat tvam asi, I can tell from your posts that you really understood the Joseph Campbell message I was trying to convey.

You not only understood it well but are having a field day with it's consequences. I am learning from you!!!

I wish more associates fully comprehended the principle. I can tell from reading many posts that though the idea is simple once you understand it, it requires a certain amount of effort. Not too many people fully comprehend it. It is subtle!

It's also difficult to convey to others especially those who like to give "God" traits.

The principle is also the key to understanding all of Joseph Campbell's work. It opens up the world of mythology and religion and helps us understand the role of science.

So what is this great principle?

All existence is grounded in deep mystery. All of us are mystery beings!
Joseph Campbell wants us to realize that. All the metaphors for "God" are pointing to this one great realization.

Science can never penetrate the mystery of being. So tat tvam asi answers Richard Dawkins very well.

Our experience of the mystery of ourselves doesn't come easy that is why we have all these myths and rites that aim to help us have such an experience.

So what does such an experience do for us?

It centers us! It stops us from running after this God or that God. We stop intellectualizing and trying to give God traits.

As tat tvam asi said we just sit still and experience it; experience our connection to it. We are that mystery we seek.

As Joseph Campbell so wisely said. If your metaphor for "God" is not putting you in touch with the mystery that you are then it's a lie.

tat tvam asi, it's interesting that you chose such an appropriate name. It's almost as if it was your goal all along. In my opinion you have arrived!

"Thou Art That" is the ultimate realization!

Your undergraduate studies in Joseph Campbell are over! How about a Masters program in Joseph Campbell? :)

Ruiz

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Post by Evinnra »

jufa wrote:If mythological and religious themes are to be accepted as truth, does this mean the one accepting such themes knows the origin of both myth and religion because they are in a constant state of meditation and live from the Spirit of the awareness of why myth and religion are essential to mankind?

Or does the study of myth and religion necessitate questions in order for acceptance of them to be known exclusively by the seeker for Spirit enlightenment?

jufa
Jufa,

To both of your questions I would answer No and for much the same reason. The seeker for Spirit enlightenment does best if listens carefully. It does not take knowing God to recognise truth when we hear it or see it. Nobody can know God while in human form equipped by human consciousness. Seeking for truth we are all seeking for the source but only love can help us to receive.

Evinnra

p.s. This is my 500th post on JCF board but now I have to take leave for a while. Thanks Jufa for your words, I'll be reading them over and over again.

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Post by jufa »

Hi Evinnra!

I am totally in agreement while one is clothed in human form and consciousness, they cannot even begin to know God. But God is Consciousness. He is individual Consciousness of men. This does mean, as you have stated
It does not take knowing God to recognise truth when we hear it or see it.
But in order to hear or see it as whole, perfect, complete and pure in stead of the fragmented states men see and hear it, they must go away. They must go away from the god of the intellect and the God of literal interpretation and let the God within them fire them with Its presence. And if they don't go away, they will go somewhere looking for something that is not there.

Mary the mother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene are excellent examples of this when they when to the tomb of Jesus and found Him not there.

Campbell tell of the Sharman priest who went away and found God and the center of the universe on every mountain. Then in returning to his body the priest had to be breathed upon or else he could not reenter his body.

Knowing what is considered to be the truth in the physical is one thing, but when one touches the truth, as the Sharman priest did in the Spirit of Being, that truth is theirs eternally.

jufa

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Post by tat tvam asi »

Jufa, you may have misunderstood Ruiz and I. We were talking about the 'spiritual principle' all the while. It's beyond even the beyond, that's spirituality (iti iti) it's a mystery.

Stage 1 spirituality is a focus on consciousness

Stage 2 spirituality is the acceptance of beyond even consciousness

Both favor God, Religion, Mythology, Spirituality but from two levels of taking it in. From level 1 God is very much like a human being. He/She thinks certain things about certain things, liking this, not liking that, and acting as an experiencer of the pairs of opposites.

Level 2 goes into a new understanding altogether. It does not eliminate level 1, but it adds a new found depth to it - it supports it. It puts the focus on the mystery of the God/consciousness. It ushers in the sense of allowing yourself to experience the reality of that which is not thinking, liking or disliking things, not considering anything in any way shape or form. I can apply the question here, "why does God/consciousness exist without beginning or ending?" This is the same as asking why existence exists at all, or why God exists at all? It funnels down to absolute mystery. So "mystery over mind", and, "mind over matter", is what we have taking place here in this spiritual context.

The mystery, which can be viewed as beyond even consciousness, is the "leave taking of God, for God", so to speak. The leave taking of 'super conscious' God, for 'beyond conscious' God.

This does not debase spirituality of course, it presents an added level to it. Mystery is very real, it's our reality in a world where we can not anwser the question of 'why'.

So I think that we should respect it, think about it, live in it, and experience it within ourselves - tat tvam asi, we are it. No one here is suggesting that we should not. Therefore my position is that spirituality is an extremely valid factor in life whether people can realize it or not. Science can not eliminate it. So those who think that science can eliminate the mystery of life are left with the task of fully answering the question of 'why' space exists with properties that allow life to evolve here in the now. The philosopher of science that I questioned on the physics forum quickly conceded that 'mystery' is ultimate, even in quantum wave physics, were we are considering an infinite space, with the potential for infinite life existing within that space, and potential infinite consciousness existing through the infinity of an infinite space. I found the 'beyond' factor associated with infinity - its the simple question of why it exists.


Ruiz and I have simply introduced you to an added level of understanding spirituality that the two of us had to face at some point in our own past experiences and conversations and just as you're facing right now in the present conversation.

If Ruiz had not realized this depth for himself, from within, and then spoken of this 'added depth' in a conversation where I was on about "transcendent energy consciousness" as being ultimate, I may have never hit the 2nd level understanding of spirituality. It's all in realizing Factor X of the Campbellian equation. We can't attach consciousness to factor X of the spiritual formula without neglecting the standard of unknowability. This unknowability is mysticism/religion - the study of mystery/God.


ps - Thanks for the feed back Ruiz. You're the exact type of thinker that can show the way to a 2nd level understanding around here. People like yourself are in the minority on most forums and in the world in general. I can understand how frustrated you were that so few people were acknowledging the 'full scope' of spirituality/mysticism/religion. It's subtle as you've suggested. So now I'm currious as to what's next? Is there more?


tat tvam asi/space
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jufa
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Post by jufa »

Hi Tat, if I may address you in this manner.

I do not believe I misunderstood Ruiz nor you. I was attempting to tell of my approach from an angle of 'why' men have not begun to take the steps to remove themselves from the animalistic mentality.

I have never look at spirituality as a focus on consciousness. I have always deemed it to be a discipline for men to set a standard for observing the human law of reciprocity, and then setting a foundation to eliminate the twin pillars of dualism in themselves.

Of course the standard to be set is a watching of what one digest as thought.
"An undiscerned mind is as a tree it absorps all it takes in, even the poison."
So to myself, spirituality is a metaphor.

Neither can I see spirituality as
the acceptance of beyond even consciousness
for the mind cannot accept that which it is not aware of. Certainly the mind cannot grasp the reality of itself when it sees only its own hypnotic reflection. And so, while men are still hypnotized by the belief of only being human, there can be no beyond, no less an acceptance of beyond.

The stages for men to reach and begin to build their Spirit fortitude, I have experienced is in the principle of "precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little." Until this principle and pattern, I've found, is complete, God can never be direct when dealing with men in their mentality of human thoughts.

I am not saying this eliminates God as the substance and essence of man' life of thoughts nor mental images his human mind projects and his imagination gives volume too. I am saying God cannot act directly within the mortality which has divided His/her/It's objective will of intent into man's subjective world of possessive thoughts of illusions.

This is the reasons for the 'why.' This is the reason 'why' the questions always come forth as 'if' God exist 'why doesn't He/She/It do this? Or 'if' God is a loving God 'why' does He/She/It allow this to happen?

The questions will always be there. But in asking the question it must be remembered the answer already is. That is the metaphor. And the metaphor can never be understood nor accepted. It must be lived. To live the metaphor, there has to be a conscious union with God. To be in conscious union with God one must realize they are the answer to the questions of 'why' and 'if.'

And in realizing man is the question and answer he has to begin searching for that space in himself where there is the vacuum where Spirit is, and matter is not. This space eliminates all levels, degrees, realm, dimensions, and spheres of human thinking, and focus points. This is the space in man where infinity meets infinity. This is the space where man realize the central is everywhere.

jufa

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Post by tat tvam asi »

"To live the metaphor, there has to be a conscious union with God. To be in conscious union with God one must realize they are the answer to the questions of 'why' and 'if.'

And in realizing man is the question and answer he has to begin searching for that space in himself where there is the vacuum where Spirit is, and matter is not. This space eliminates all levels, degrees, realm, dimensions, and spheres of human thinking, and focus point. This is the space in man where infinity meets infinity. This is the space where man realize the central is everywhere". - jufa

This is very good Jufa. I don't think that we actually disagree very much about anything. I have a definition of spirit as being the animating force of life and existence. I'm sure that your use of the term must suggest something about the animating force of the universe that inhabits everything - nothing is at rest.

In my body there are many atoms, each containing more volume of 'space' within the containment of a given electron cloud, then containing particular matter, such as protons, nuetrons, and electrons. So I can safely say that I am largely made of empty space and particular matter from both without as well as within. I am a structure of space.

If space isn't actually a void, and it's an ether, I am an ether. If space is an absolute mystery, as is suggested by asking why space/ether exists, then I am an absolute mystery, as I am composed of it. If there's energy running through it, or spirit running through space/ether all, then I am spirit, as I am composed of space/ether. I am the mystery and I know it.

I am the why?

Somewhere there's a quote where someone asked Campbell, "Are you Agnostic?", because he's talking about mystery and perhaps 'not knowing'.

He replied, "I know too much".

I always reasoned that this was because he 'knows' that he 'doesn't know', therefore he's more Gnostic, then he is Agostic. :lol:

I'm knowing. 8)

tat tvam asi/space
Last edited by tat tvam asi on Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by tat tvam asi »

You may agree with this summary as well. It goes over the problems associated with trying to organize a religion.


"Truth is a pathless land"

"What follows is the speech made by Jiddu Krishnamurti in 1929 when he dissolved the Order of the Star. The Order of the Star was the organisation built around Krishnamurti by Theosophists who selected him at the age of 13 to be the vehicle for the return of the 'Maitreya'. He was raised accordingly, but after his enlightment, he refused the role that has been prepared for him, disbanded the organisation of which he was the head, and continued to teach on his own. His speech was made during the Dutch Camp of Ommen, in front of more than three thousand Star members, and with many thousands of Dutch people listening on the radio. Many of the concepts that are present in this speech are worth pondering over in the light of almost 70 years of spiritual history. Here's J. Krishnamurti on the issue:



"We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain....

I maintain that Truth is a 'pathless land', and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any 'religion', by any 'sect'. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by 'any path whatsoever', cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others.

This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley....

So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organisations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organisation of a spiritual kind; please understand this....

If an organisation be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it.

This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this; not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions, may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.

Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussion year after year.

A newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organisation in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because he said: "What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you." If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves?....

Because I am free, unconditioned, whole, not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal, I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free, not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears - from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone. You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle - transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyse what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally....

For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World Teacher. For eighteen years you have organised, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you new encouragement, who would set you free - and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different - not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organisation of the Star become different?....

You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else.... when I say look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few. So why have an organisation?....

No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organisation, nor throwing yourselves into work, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. "How many members are there in it?" That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. "How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false." I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. If there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough....

Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity....

You have been accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible?....

But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you 'really understand', and hence are capable of living in the 'eternal'. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.

So those are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone - I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organisations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free."- Jiddu Krishnamurti

No one path 'to' Truth; there is only the path 'of ' Truth.

The path of truth is in recognizing the mystery.

Every single path is the path of mystery.

Even a false path, is of mystery.

Everything is of mystery.

The only mystery.

mystery.

?

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Post by jufa »

I have never been at odds with what you have presented, this I want you to know. I believe what appeared to be confusing between us, if this is the right word, was the way I presented myself.

What you have presented by Krishnamurti is relative to the way I have caught the vision. Relative I say because each man's footsteps within the path of their odyssey are uniquely their own. To myself, this means the path of living the experience of life for all men cannot be known by another. The experience of the path can be related to because man has found a common ground to relate and project words, pictures, and thoughts, but the experiment of an individual' experience cannot touch the conscious of exactness in another.

To me, Krishnamurti had no other choice but to commit suicide in self-defense. To leave the collective thought which attempted to place him in a place he did not belong. Krishnamurti, to me, died to the world so he could be free to be free. He therefore had no other choice but to live the metaphor, and in living it, demonstrated all who followed their inner Conscience of righteousness could become the saviour of themselves, and the world of their thinking. Is this not the path Laotzu and Buddha, the Blessed One, and Jesus the Christ took, and taught each individual must take?

jufa

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Post by tat tvam asi »

Here's some more Campbell on the issue of energy and consciousness and how it relates to the mystery of being. If we focus on the mystery, then we merely see the mystery itself in all of the forms of time.

When people say 'transcendent energy consciousness', this is to imply that the mystery of everything is itself a 'form of consciousness', just like everything else that exists, linking the whole of eternity with a beginning-less and endless amount of consciousness. This is how Campbell approaches it from differing levels according to differing lectures.


The hero's journey, p. 160

Campbell: There's a famous line at the close of Goethe's Faust: "Everything phenomenal or temporal is but a metaphor." And then Nietzsche topped that a few years later by saying, "everything ETERNAL is but a reference, a metaphor."

Now the function of mythology is to help us to experience everything temporal as a reference. And also to the so-called ETERNAL verities as merely references. Mythology opens the world so that it becomes transparent to something that is beyond speech, beyond words-in short, what we call transcendence.

The first field that has to be transcendentalized this way is the field of the environment that we're in, the world that we live in. So that we can see the whole world as opening up to a dimension of wonder and mystery. Every object in the world speaks of this mystery, the mystery of 'life and consciousness' pours in through the various 'bodies and beings' round about. It must then show you yourself that you are similarly transparent to transcendence.

-p.158

"Now I'm interested in the 'biological thing' because I think of mythology as a 'function of biology'. Let's say that every organ of the body has its 'energy impulse', an impulse to action, and experience of the 'conflicts' of these different 'energies inside', is what constitutes the 'psyche'. IT'S NATURE TALKING. And mythology is the expression in 'personified images' of these ENERGIES." - Campbell

"The Christ idea and the Buddha idea are perfectly 'equivalent' mythological symbols. Two ways of saying the very 'same thing': that a 'transcendent energy consciousness' informs the whole world and informs you. To become aware of that, and to live out of that center instead of out of this (specific) mind center, is the salvation of your life. That means putting yourself in accord with nature." - Campbell


Brown: Why have we in the west lost this sense of what you are calling "accord with nature"?

Campbell: We're getting back to a kind of Lamarckian view-Lamarck was earlier than Darwin-and of Goethe. Goethe had a theory of evolution. And Schopenhauer has a wonderful paper called the "The Will in Nature," where he speaks about these things.

Favrot: So you think at the protoplasmic level there is some 'intention'-

Campbell: There has to be! I saw a film of my friend Stanley Keleman, made at the university of Pennsylvania, I think, of just raw protoplasm under a microscope. and you see this acts as a flow, and then there's a flow this way, and pretty soon the flow is building a little channel for itself, it's building a house for itself. When I drove home here to Esalen from San Francisco after that film, all I could see as I drove was protoplasm! Protoplasm in the form of cows eating, protoplasm in the form of grass, and protoplasm overhead. It was a kind of satori, a kind of revelation, the whole world as 'intentional protoplasm', with CONSCIOUSNESS and ENERGY. From then I come to the feeling of ENERGY AND CONSCIOUSNESS as being two aspects of the SAME THING!

Favrot: The physicist's are saying that nowadays." - end quote


In quantum wave physics this is very obvious. A particle, or wave center holds a 'knowledge' of the location of other particles/wave centers, and this knowledge is used in the exchange of energy between particles/wave centers. Waves are energy moving through space, thus a particle being a spherical standing wave center holds a basic level of 'consciousness' concerning the location of it's surrounding counter parts in space. This leads to the combinations of different particles that form matter in space. Obviously we are an 'extension' of this basic quantum level 'energy consciousness' that is used by a given sub-atomic particle to locate and detect the surrounding matter in space.

To check up on this thought, I e-mailed the physicist Milo Wolf who discovered the spherical standing wave center while studying the de Broglie wavelength issue. I sort of asked him a loaded question, what I asked him was, "when dealing with an 'energy wave center' in space, would it be proper to say that we are dealing with a basic level 'energy consciousness' taking place between all particles in space"? He said that he hadn't heard of that specific terminology being used to describe wave physics, but he said yes, that is what we are observing.

That energy moving through space is certainly the 'informing energy' of all things, and that 'informing energy' is stemming from the very 'mystery of existence itself' that we are speaking about here with the term transcendent.

How far into the micro and macrocosm's does 'energy consciousness' reach? I would assume that it extends throughout the whole of eternity itself, 'transcending' our little universal area of experience altogether. This would be to suggest that eternity/existence holds a consciousness of 'itself' as the one invisible aspect that is common to all of the visible things that exist throughout the never ending eternity of primary substance, the core of metaphysics.

The mystery of the eternity is quite simply that we can give no real beginning to eternity, no real origin to it, thus we give no true origin to existence itself. Eternity is far greater than our little area of experience that we are calling a universe - measured to be 10^80. What exists beyond the finite 10^80 universe? I would suspect that an infinite amount of 'categories of thought' exist. The thought that our universe is but one of many and that existence goes on and on and on is a good example. Here, I'm dealing with eternity, just like the "eternal verities" that Campbell spoke of having to transcend in the above quotes.

I can see that "thought" doesn't break down until we attempt to explain how or why existence even exists at all? There's no language for this, there's no category for this ultimate mystery - it forces us to yield.

If varying levels of consciousness extend throughout this beginning-less and endless eternity then there's the mystery of consciousness itself.

as the many (a) come from the one (b) so does the universe (c) come from ? (x)


WAVE PHYSICS PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE


Final Speculation on the 'Origin of Consciousness'.

"It is evident that the matter waves of the universe are the underlying source of the action we observe in our human energy world, even though the matter waves are unseen - like the puppeteer behind the curtain. This process is available for use by nature in designing our evolutionary development. Did it happen? If it did, then it is not unreasonable that our brain and other parts of our neural physiology are interconnected by an unseen communication network that coordinates and regulates behavior of certain parts of the body. Since energy exchange is not involved at this matter wave level, we would not have a sensory impression of logical thought, only an awareness of ourselves and our body. More research is needed to know, but in view of the intricacy of our neural structures, the work will not be easy.

The range of experiments needed to verify consciousness or extra-sensory perception is almost as large as human imagination. An example is the philosophy of my daughter Jennifer, who was the illustrator and artist for my book (Wolff, 1990) which first described the wave structure of matter. After reading the book, my daughter has acquired new beliefs on consciousness. As a scientist, I cannot propose beliefs not based on laboratory facts, but my daughter has no such inhibitions. She uses the matter wave theory to explain things that had formerly puzzled her. She explains, "Consciousness can be active. If I pray that a sick friend's cancer will be cured, I visualize my 'thoughts traveling on matter waves' that 'connect my mind' to my 'sick friend's mind'."

The matter wave theory has been happily 'integrated into her existing belief system'. She says "I just ignored the complex math, I don't understand it. Perhaps what we think of as 'God', is only the 'interconnections' between all of us at this wave/particle level "and" I don't care if it is 'God' or 'matter waves', all I need to know is that all human beings are 'connected' to each other and that prayer and my 'human thoughts' are powerful and that using the consciousness of my mind 'communicates' them for me." - Milo Wolf


We can certainly have an eternal system of energy consciousness at work, and feel that reality actually is a large scale consciousness - I feel that the physics support that position. But there's no answer as to why such a grand thing exists, it's just what exists. So the mystery is happening all while the consciousness is taking place.

Mystery is where our mind is actually forced to shut down. How can something exist without a specific beginning? Shut down. It can be reasoned that there is no other way. For a beginning, something had to pre-exist the beginning and we're back to no actual beginning once again. Just an infinite amount of apparent beginnings going back to infinity. Infinity is that final deity. Yahweh is infinity, ...the beginning and ending and the new beginning... Somehow, though it's difficult, we can see to beyond the 'eternal verities' by acknowledging the mystery of non-origin which is existence. We can't even symbolize beyond that. In Hinduism, I believe, the eternal deity removes it's own head at this point, freeing us from it's bondage. Very clever mythology!

tat tvam asi/space

jufa
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Post by jufa »

It is true, I've found from my indulgent and experimental living, when consciousness is stated in terms of being transcendent energy consciousness, it becomes the clothes of the mystery. I've found man sees these clothes from an invisible, yet applicable form usable in their daily living.

They first come into sight via the invisible on the locomotion of thought, and become structural by analyzation and interpretation. Musician's structure are the musical note they see and write upon sheets. Poets sees the structures in allegorical phases. Painters in the abstract of colors enhancement of the visions they see. Lovers in the rhapsody of harmony. The greedy in the lust of desires. And on an on the forms structures of man's imagination comes to fructification.

All these structures are indeed references of the eternality of the invisible thought. The metaphor is men cannot find the beginning of these thoughts in them, nor their end because they came from the invisible mystery of transcendent energy consciousness from the silence of man himself. And man has never been able to step off into the invisible silence of himself. So man's words of labling always fall short of transparency.

Nature is transparent though. It is transparent in the evolution of growth and chemical atonement in man's body, and the body of the earth and all within an upon it. Nature spells out the path all things must take to be true to the forms temporal. And should everything be true unto itself, abiding by the principle "everything after God's kind," some read "everything after its kind," there would be no conflict of energies, for the Spirit, or psyche would be intune with Life.

To be intuned with life, one has to hear the call of nature within themselves. For this to happen, one must come to realize there is no power on this earth which can be influential over their will. This is the understanding which leads one back to be in position to hear the 'Voice,' or the nature of the call.

Regardless of the forms or structures in creation, I've come to understand, there is no distance between thought and consciousness regardless. Being man's body contains all the elements of creation, the wave lengths of his thoughts are the space of the universe. This means the conscious thoughts of man are the transcendent energy consciousness which is inclusive of everything there is.

Man's thoughts comes out of the invisible. These thoughts comes in physical forms scientist and quantum physicist's microscopes have not even begun to discover. And these forms evolve to the level which are discussed in the scientific world today, yet they return to the invisible. So it is true, all discoveries are references to the mystery which produced the structures and forms of creation

What it all comes to is there is no logic for existence. Yet existence is. And here again the beginning is the same as the end, a metaphor.

jufa

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