When are symbols taken too seriously?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

tat,


From priest, to monk. IMO

I have a friend making this change now who was also literally a preist, and changing what has been a foundation for your whole life can be very difficult.

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Tat and Boring,

Serving the spirit is a vocation I'd never envy. Seems to me that the sense of reality on the material plane can be a foundation for the larger experience of reality on the spiritual plane (for want of a better term).

The religious officionado has the singular burden of having to distinguish the two kinds of reality in light of murky sacred text, and then having to translate these for a confused and mystified audience.

Do either of you serve (or know someone who serves) as metaphor -- symbol "translators" for others?

Carmela
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

boringguy
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Post by boringguy »

CarmelaBear,


I have no training as such. Sorry, maybe tat does.

I do participate in something we call Life Group, where we share a belief in christ. Our focus, however, is on gaining understanding from life experiences to develop a perspective that will bring each closer to being able to live what they endevor to be. Sounds like your church might be along the same lines. Our groups are small and meet in homes however.

In this sense I believe each of us helps the other translate their metaphors, into life. A value of community. The only things required are authenticity and willingness to be a monk.

Campbell:
In our tradition it is the monk who seeks the experience, while the priest is the one who has studied to serve the community.
Not hard to appreciate Campbell from that perspective. One of the things I enjoy about JCF is that there seems to be a lot of monks.(those who are seeking) 8)

On another note, I have been playing catch up for a couple of days after traveling (again), but as I was reading some of your recent posts another of Campbells' quotes came to mind. (one of my favorites)
The privilege of a life time is being who you are.
The lucky ones in life, never let anyone take that from them.



tat,

In another thread Evinnra wrote;
The fundamental difference between reason and love, is that reason can be followed step by step, where as love will only allow for a degree of predictability.

Seems to correlate with the particle function (step by step) vs. the wave function ( only a degree of predictablity) of matter.


From the gnostic gospels Philip tells us;
It's impossible to see what exists, unless one becomes similar.

An unscientific comparison, but a thought.

tat tvam asi
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Post by tat tvam asi »

I'm sure that this is what Philip is expressing in considering existence itself, mere existence, it can be witnessed by observing anything that exists:

Empty space exists, thus it 'is' existence.

Matter in empty space exists, thus it 'is' existence.

"I AM" existence, in short. I've come to realize that the term existence and the term God are indifferent. They equally refer to the totality, the all, the universe. (Adonai/YHWH is said to mean "universe")

Existence is actually 'visible' in the grand scheme of things which seems to reflect the notion of the kingdom of the father as being spread upon the face of the earth while men do not see it - do not see it for what it actually is.

The only training that I have in understanding religious metaphors is from reading through Joseph Campbell's books. I'm improvisational at times, but the improvisation is based on the knowledge that I've taken in from comparative mythology. I don't limit myself to any one particular religion, rather I seek the truths contained in each. I try to live in a sense of the overall religious experience - a little bit of the east, a little bit of the west...

"HAVING NO WAY AS WAY, HAVING NO LIMITATION AS LIMITATION" - Bruce Lee

I do offer my personal interpretations to friends and people at work if the issue comes up. A lot of people know that I've made a hobby out of reading through religious/mythic and modern scientific knowledge's, so I'll be approached with questions from time to time while being out and about in everyday life and I do my best to answer them using the information that I've been exposed to over the years. One of the main things that I've gathered is that God is a metaphor for existence itself, and existence is itself an absolute mystery - thus God is mystery as existence is mystery.

Jesus said, "I and the father are one". I see the verse as expressing, "I and existence are one". That's the truth of truths - the scientific truth at that. So I conclude that there 'is' truth in the bible, even though there are many untruths surrounding it in ways that obscure the deep meanings from being seen directly by the uninitiated, the common everyday people, the church members of 'most' of the more popular institutional western religions. I never understood the real point of the Christ story until I realized the implication of 'the blasphemy of the Christ'.

tat tvam asi/space

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

There is a kind of monk's life in the contemplative moment, and there's a priest's service rendered when we provide for the needs of others.

I watched a few minutes of a TV program that was about some of the changes that have been taking place within the American military, and it is alarming! It would seem that the belief in Armageddon is favored to the exclusion of other beliefs, and our American military is actively working to bring about the destruction of humanity.

The Christian Right is firmly in power in America, and they are virtually unchallenged by Congress or the courts. There is a belief in End Times scriptures that takes the metaphors for fact to be fulfilled right now, by hook or by crook. There is a terrible drive, backed by the full might of the American government, mowing down life on earth in the name of a Father God with the promise of rapture and radiance and the coming of the Kingdom. It would be laughable looney tunes if it were not real and serious and a much worse threat than the Muslim fundamentalists, who at least represent some sensible political issues (like developing more respect for other cultures).

The symbols are taken for a recipe to trash all the rest of us.

It's not clear whether the world knows what to do about this. The U.S. government seems utterly and completely paralyzed, unable to express something life-affirming and positive. The only "life" the Christian fundamentalists seem to recognize is the one that denies sexuality in favor of the miracle of conception. I understand how sacred it is to create a human life, but sexuality is a force of social life that tends to rule over humans even under the best of circumstances. There are better ways to manage the situation than to criminalize what is essentially a desperate act by people who are overtaken by the verities of just being alive.

I don't know the answer, but I sure do have questions. Why do the rest of us tolerate the hijacking of our civilization by ideas that try to force us to accept the Second Coming of the Judgment Christ who is supposed to set us all on fire and exclude nearly everyone except the Chosen? Why aren't we working to get the rascals out? What do we do with our sense of urgency? What now?

Is this what it was like in Nazi Germany?


~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

tat tvam asi
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Post by tat tvam asi »

I don't know if you ever watched "Enemy of the State" with Will Smith Carmelabear, but the point is that the US government has it's various eyes all over these Internet conversations. :shock:

I'm just pointing out that when we speak on the Internet, we are pretty much 'speaking into the microphone' for those monitoring these things.

Having said that, I would like to think that we will have a swing to the left on the up coming election. We had a strong swing to the right for two terms and I think that it's quite logical to expect an equal but opposite reaction. 8) After all, the hard swing to the right that we are now experiencing was merely an opposite reaction to the previous left wing terms. It's always back and forth.

I have an interesting twist on the second coming of the Christ in my book research. Like I was saying, Christ can be seen as being symbolic of a self-realization between man and cosmos. If that's the case, and this was known at the time of the new testament writings, then perhaps the 'second coming of the Christ' was merely a reference to an 'unknown' date in the future of man when this 'self-realization' between man and cosmos is seen for a 'second time'. No man knows the day nor the hour :lol:

With an emerging science that firmly links man and cosmos as being 'one' in ways that were not imagined in our former point particle physics, many of the most ancient mystical realizations enter into the realm of science. So it's possible that the world could experience a sense of "I and the other are one" as we become more intelligent and self-aware through our advancing science and our advancing biblical historian-ship. This greatly undermines the institutional insistence on a literal return of a historical Jewish messiah who is traveling bodily through space between earth and some far off heaven and back again. The only thing that will finally 'end the literalism' is having a well informed body of youth growing up in the world with an understanding that there is an 'alternative interpretation' to the evident nonsense of the denotation (IMO).

ps - what do you think about all of this Uncle Sam? I know you're listening. 8)

tat tvam asi/space

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

As for Uncle Sam, he may be presently dominated by the far right, but he is dependent upon accurate information for the ability to function, and as such, quite interdependent with the community of souls who know that the Christian bible is not a literal text.

There is a measure of respect between me and the intelligence community. I know that from years of speaking my mind, starting with my bold student activism of the early 1970's. I was treated rather badly by fellow students, but the intelligence people were much more respectful. I came to feel quite safe, and I prefer that the intelligence gatherers keep careful tabs on my activities. In that way, they can be certain that I am not a threat. They need reassurance that I will not seek to overthrow the government by force or engage in violence or the use of illegal drugs, and frankly, that is a completely legitimate concern. They keep me honest. If I were tempted to stray, I'd have to consider how transparent my life is and has been for a very long time.

I've got several accomplished relatives and acquaintances who were granted high level security clearances by the federal government. To the last person, they all had only one serious obstacle to obtaining clearance. That problem was their relationship to me. The intelligence people never denied any of them the clearance they sought, in part because I am well respected, even by those who disagree with my views or disapprove of my choices.

If Uncle Sam was going to harm me, he would have done so by now, and there is no reason to suspect any serious misconduct in relation to me or those close to me. As for privacy, I've been too outspoken for too long to expect much of that. It's not that I'm a threat. It's that I'm a challenge. That is as it should be. There is an issue where other citizens are concerned, but it does not apply to me. Therefore, I'm quite comfortable with the surveillance. I try to be a good person and that helps a lot.

It is absolutely true that if the intelligence people violated my legitimate rights, there would certainly be an appropriate response, but this is not likely to be a reason for the federal government to thus honor me. The most likely motive for the respect I receive is simply that there is an ethos within the intelligence community with regard to freedom.

As for the others who enter into online conversations, well....I totally understand if people are afraid to speak up on topics political. Still, most of the minds who express themselves here are brave and likely to have enough knowledge and experience to understand the parameters of free speech. Some may be far more vulnerable than others. For example, I believe that those who engage in illegal activities are less likely to run for high office.

People like me who are attempting to live up to very high standards of conduct (both their own standards and the ethics of their critics) are far less likely to find a morally and ethically acceptable way to amass a large following or huge amounts of money. At some point, the energy it takes to overcome the obstacles becomes unattainable. Our own ambitions can have the effect of slowing our progress toward our goals.

------

It seems to me that the relationship between humanity and the cosmos is currently going through a tremendous sea change. Areas like quantum physics, psychoanalysis, genetics, chemistry, and the technology revolution has turned our world upside down, spun us around, and sent us into a whole new set of realities. The convergence between ancient philosophy and the most current science is particularly dramatic.

If Campbell felt that everyone is as much "Christ" as Jesus was, I tend to think that the universality of the "Second Coming" is already being recognized. The individual is part of a kind of global democratization process in which the realization of the supreme power of the individual consciousness is beginning to sink into the collective consciousness.

Humanity will not ask that the cup be taken away, because there will be no need. This time around, the ultimate sacrifice will not be necessary. Humanity will accept the conditions required to save the lives of each and every individual within the context of the great mystery. There will be an identification between the self and the other. It will be a natural progression and it will seem to be the most compelling option for each person to take. There will be a quantum leap, and it will occur when the highest reality finally meets the consciousness of the individual human being. Divinity will be fully experienced by all, and the love will be so pervasive that there will be no need for hatred or suspicion or punishment, etc.

We are presently on the eve of this transformation.

~
Once in a while a door opens, and let's in the future. --- Graham Greene

hobbit
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Post by hobbit »

What a marvelous and powerful topic and dialogue! Mythic Symbolism (Symbolic Interactionism) is a valuable indirect way to perienthetically engage what we cannot yet encounter directly. The split in personal stances between methodological-driven empiracal evidence and the speculative realms of philosophy and religion is interesting. I am reminded of Plato, Whitehead, and Kuhn. Plato once asked: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who shall guardthe guardians?). Centuries later Kuhn worte of scientific paradigm blindness- trained scientific professionals unable or unwilling to acknoledge/accept any fact/experiement/theory that ran counter to their profseeionally trained worldview. Both Plato and Kuhn point to a Whiteheadian notion: The Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness- that we grant ontological validity to human phenomenological constructs, as if they actuall existed, and act accordingly.
Symbols become a necessary, concretized form of cultural security. When these are assailed, the unconscious comes into play. As individuals and as a society (mezzo & macro interrelational dynamics) we oft seek to reinstate the habits of behavior, emotion, and thought that are intertwined in our symbolic buildings like the Pentagon and the World Trade Towers, especialy when these are damaged and destroyed. By proxy, so is our ethos. People tend to react out of invested habit (supra), instead of reformlating life course trajectories in response.
Crisis is a hermetical vessel in which a watershed sorting occurs. Individuals, Groups, and Institutions reveal themselves under duress to be either gatekeepers of habit (dominator rationals-"this is the only way.") or guides to new and deeper insight and novel responses to crises such as the American response to 9/11. We have the opportunity to become the guardians of ourselves, our values, visions and relationships, instead of reinvesting them in historic, concrete, paradigmatic habit.

[/i]

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

hobbit wrote:Symbols become a necessary, concretized form of cultural security. When these are assailed, the unconscious comes into play. As individuals and as a society (mezzo & macro interrelational dynamics) we oft seek to reinstate the habits of behavior, emotion, and thought that are intertwined in our symbolic buildings like the Pentagon and the World Trade Towers, especialy when these are damaged and destroyed. By proxy, so is our ethos. People tend to react out of invested habit (supra), instead of reformlating life course trajectories in response.

Crisis is a hermetical vessel in which a watershed sorting occurs. Individuals, Groups, and Institutions reveal themselves under duress to be either gatekeepers of habit (dominator rationals-"this is the only way.") or guides to new and deeper insight and novel responses to crises such as the American response to 9/11. We have the opportunity to become the guardians of ourselves, our values, visions and relationships, instead of reinvesting them in historic, concrete, paradigmatic habit.
The Hobbit on habit.....wonderful! Thank you for your insight.

Though we can find innovative responses to crisis, we are yet standing on the shoulders of those who originally invented the wheel. I tend to think that we are searching for new ways with the same eyes we had before. It gives me reason to be concerned for our future.

Benyboy
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Post by Benyboy »

People like me who are attempting to live up to very high standards of conduct (both their own standards and the ethics of their critics) are far less likely to find a morally and ethically acceptable way to amass a large following or huge amounts of money. At some point, the energy it takes to overcome the obstacles becomes unattainable. Our own ambitions can have the effect of slowing our progress toward our goals.
from CarmelaBear

I know huh! Try as we might. WE only win for losing. I killed a demon. I saw a God.
Nobody believes me, I have no money.
It's all in my head. I know.


Symbols have only meaning when given names. The shared experience is given other names uses different symbols with meaning that are same or similar .


ps. I find myself arguing facetiously with those even when in agreement. I think to stimulate metaphors into more ambiguity. Is this just me? Or am I thinking again.
Do I need to start my own thread?
BenyBoyBLISSBenyBoyBLISSBenyBoyBLISSBenyBoyBLISS

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

In the four functions of myth, there are four sides to our ideas about God.

One function of myth is to inspire awe and wonder. Nothing does that like the Gigantic and All-Powerful and All-Knowing God, the ginormous computer entity who creates and rules all that exists.

Second function is to make the universe and cosmology understandable. There's the nature we receive as grateful guests at a great feast, the nature over which we have dominion, and there is the nature that has become our responsibilty as stewards. God is clothed in the metephors for time, space, the firmament, the environment, and the strange world of quantum physics.

Third function is the ordering of society, which is now a global "village", unified by technology and thought transference on an unprecedented scale. God's law transcends the politics of governmental law, and can be invoked by anyone for any purpose. The forces that hold society together threaten to bring a great flood that may wipe out everybody who is not on the next Noah's Ark.

Fourth function is pedagogical, helping us get through this life. God is within. God struggles with us, co-creator and One with both the individual who can be silent and with teeming humanity, billions who are always multiplying with the optimism of believers in a self-divinity, the individual's own capacity to be good enough, smart enough, and loved enough to live well and keep making and feeding and raising babies.

Given a certain degree of surrender, our art, our mythological metaphors and our religions can give us relief from the hard scrabble world of commerce, militarism, the body's relentless march toward the grave, and a propensity to just give up in exasperation and despair. The problem is that to gain some degree of control over our own lives, it seems as though we have to learn to give up the egocentric striving we took our whole lives to master.

~

freespiritintraining
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Response to Carmela Bear

Post by freespiritintraining »

I read your passionate plea for reasonable rational logical thinking and after reading your post this last sentence hit me right between the eyes:

Quote: Much of the "terrorism" we imagine does not exist in the real world.

I could relate to your heart felt questions: When I came to that last line: i kept going: I'd like to share some of those thoughts with you:

With respect: No, it's just our fears amplified: our emotions aroused: our needs for safety, security and structured routine threatened and perhaps even traumatized.

And it will transform: out of the ashes rises the Phoenix: It always has and it always will. (at least in all the the mythology I ever read.).

Adn my life has been a personal process of growth and transformation: Today I can honestly say that I am a decent human being. Perhaps Ghandhi said it best: "We must be the change we want to see" Brian's corollary: But "seeing" it and "changing" it can sure be a pain in the ass.

And when we get through that place: And learn to trust "God" no matter what: Then we follow our bliss and that in my experience can take me into some very dark places to fight my dragons and tame my demons.

And it can only happen one mind at a time. But when many minds get tuned to the same wavelength: Well, if immovable object meets irrestible force: Immovable object has to move.

Any way thank your for your post. I just wanted to let you know that I did sincerely appreciate it.
May God Bless you And Those you Love And Care For: It does Anyway: Whether you Like it or Not.

CarmelaBear
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Post by CarmelaBear »

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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