The Garden of Eden and its interpretations

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

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Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

I think this post is long overdue. At least I think JJ will appreciate it. :wink:
Freewill

Words by Neil Peart, music by Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson

There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"the stars aren’t aligned ---
Or the gods are malign"
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that’s clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that they’ve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They weren’t born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can’t pray for a place
In heaven’s unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
That’s far too fleet...
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Evinnra wrote: If Og is right then WHAT makes the Universe turn? If the quality of unpredictability is not an ingredient in the ‘soup’ how come the Universe haven’t disappeared just yet? It might be all just an illusion, but this illusion is happening. No?
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I will try and answer anyway.

What makes the Universe turn ... I don't know, I don't think we have the requisite knowledge and we may never have have.

Unpredictability, I don't think Og is saying that the universe is predictable, though we can make reasonable short term predictions eg the sun will rise tomorrow or I will go to work tomorrow, with some confidence. Although Og and I might disagree with some of the details, I think we agree the "only" way to predict accurately what is happening in the universe is to watch it unfold.

Yes the illusion is definitely happening. It's like watching a magician pull a rabbit out of the hat; it appears that way, but something else is happening. Working out how the illusion works is fun, and it does not have to diminish the art of the illusion.

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

romansh,

I just want to say "thank you" for the apology you offered me above, yet please know that I felt no need for one. Discussions online are like trying to communicate with one hand tied behind your back. Makes it hard to type, though. :wink:

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Cindy B. wrote:romansh,

I just want to say "thank you" for the apology you offered me above, yet please know that I felt no need for one. Discussions online are like trying to communicate with one hand tied behind your back. Makes it hard to type, though. :wink:

Cindy
Thanks Cindy
It's just even real life I can come across as pushy ... it's passion actually.
Sometimes, I think, I have an instinct for pushing people's buttons.
So I'm just being careful.

:)

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

It's just even real life I can come across as pushy ... it's passion actually
"Is that so"
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Neoplato wrote:
It's just even real life I can come across as pushy ... it's passion actually
"Is that so"
have a nice day Neo .... :) :) :)

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

That was an Eckhart Tolle quote. The same has been said about me in the past. :D

Every so often I do fall victim to "that passion thing".
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

RUSH!

Enough said.
8)

Thanks Neo! :wink:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

romansh wrote:
Evinnra wrote: If Og is right then WHAT makes the Universe turn? If the quality of unpredictability is not an ingredient in the ‘soup’ how come the Universe haven’t disappeared just yet? It might be all just an illusion, but this illusion is happening. No?
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I will try and answer anyway.

What makes the Universe turn ... I don't know, I don't think we have the requisite knowledge and we may never have have.

Unpredictability, I don't think Og is saying that the universe is predictable, though we can make reasonable short term predictions eg the sun will rise tomorrow or I will go to work tomorrow, with some confidence. Although Og and I might disagree with some of the details, I think we agree the "only" way to predict accurately what is happening in the universe is to watch it unfold.

Yes the illusion is definitely happening. It's like watching a magician pull a rabbit out of the hat; it appears that way, but something else is happening. Working out how the illusion works is fun, and it does not have to diminish the art of the illusion.
:) :arrow: Touché, Romansh ! Does determinism entail predictability?

Theoretically, I believe, it does, since the Universe is One, so if all IS pre-determined how, what, where and when , then theoretically we have access to ALL information ( the perceived past-present-future) through sensing the very being of the One. In essence, if we lived in a pre-determined Universe, provided we developed our individual sensitivity to its extreme, nothing would be left unpredictable. Theoretically, that is. Practically, however, I think such sensitivity would be equivalent to being the same as the One, which is not even theoretically possible.

Please don’t get me wrong, I do agree with almost everything Og says, and you are right, I was merely assuming :oops: that his determinism would entail a world without the notion of unpredictability existing in it. Og might have a very good explanation how he sees a world including all conceivable ideas in a pre-determined existence. Moreover, Og might have a very good argument how free-will is still compatible with determinism – an argument that relies on the difference in the essential nature of ideas and particular things, perhaps?
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

romansh
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Post by romansh »

Evinnra wrote: :) :arrow: Touché, Romansh ! Does determinism entail predictability?
Hi Evinnra
Yes determinism (I'm not sure 'entail' is the right word) allows us to make predictions (and no doubt cats, and to some degree other life forms).
Absolute predictability (certainty) I don't see a mechanism for that.
Evinnra wrote: Theoretically, I believe, it does, since the Universe is One, so if all IS pre-determined how, what, where and when , then theoretically we have access to ALL information ( the perceived past-present-future) through sensing the very being of the One.
Ahh be careful to this one . Neo aswered 42 for what he hoping to get out of philosophy. The question turned out to be: what is six times nine? Access to all the information in the one: hmmn nice, but the access is like a reflection, possibly in Indra's net?
Evinnra wrote: In essence, if we lived in a pre-determined Universe, provided we developed our individual sensitivity to its extreme, nothing would be left unpredictable. Theoretically, that is. Practically, however, I think such sensitivity would be equivalent to being the same as the One, which is not even theoretically possible.
Determined I would agree with, but I think the jury (at least this juror) is still out on predetermined. Either way to determine accurately whether I will mow the lawn next Saturday, I have to get my big calculator out. It's called the One or more commonally the universe.
Evinnra wrote: Please don’t get me wrong, I do agree with almost everything Og says, and you are right, I was merely assuming :oops: that his determinism would entail a world without the notion of unpredictability existing in it. Og might have a very good explanation how he sees a world including all conceivable ideas in a pre-determined existence. Moreover, Og might have a very good argument how free-will is still compatible with determinism – an argument that relies on the difference in the essential nature of ideas and particular things, perhaps?
From my understanding of Og's position he thinks free will is an illusion. And Og, I don't think subscribes to a predetermined world ... quite the opposite. I reserve judgement to this last particular point.

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Hey! Og made The Ironic Times! (Warning! Obscene Burger King ad included on page!)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Neoplato
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Post by Neoplato »

Romansh Wrote:
Neo aswered 42 for what he hoping to get out of philosophy. The question turned out to be: what is six times nine?
Ahhh...but it is does equal 42....in base 13. :D Why assume that the system of counting is based on the number of fingers we can see?
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

I don't understand the reference to "42" that has come up. Would someone please explain for me? And thanks.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Clemsy
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Post by Clemsy »

Well, in Douglas Adams Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, it's the answer to life, the universe and everything.

Here's a good explanation, although it does contain spoilers if you haven't read the series:
In the first novel and radio series, a group of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings demand to learn the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything from the supercomputer, Deep Thought, specially built for this purpose. It takes Deep Thought 7½ million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42. Unfortunately, The Ultimate Question itself is unknown.

When asked to produce The Ultimate Question, the computer says that it cannot; however, it can help to design an even more powerful computer (the Earth), that can. The programmers then embark on a further ten-million-year program to discover The Ultimate Question. This new computer will incorporate living beings in the "computational matrix", with the pan-dimensional creators assuming the form of mice. The process is hindered after eight million years by the unexpected arrival on Earth of the Golgafrinchans and then is ruined completely, five minutes before completion, when the Earth is destroyed by the Vogons to make way for a new Hyperspace Bypass. This is later revealed to have been a ruse: the Vogons had been hired to destroy the Earth by a consortium of psychiatrists, led by Gag Halfrunt, who feared for the loss of their careers when the meaning of life became known.[1]

Lacking a real question, the mice decide not to go through the whole thing again and settle for the out-of-thin-air suggestion "How many roads must a man walk down?" from Bob Dylan's protest song "Blowin' in the Wind".
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Cindy B.
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Post by Cindy B. »

Talk about having an answer for everything. :wink: Thank you, Clemsy.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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