One Mythology - One Religion - One Cosmology - One People

[Cindy B.]

Very interesting, thanks.

Cindy

[Native]

In Genesis the perspective is from looking out from the earth and describing a creation sequence. So I'm pretty sure that they meant that the earth and space were created in the beginning, and then God said "Let there be light" which fired up the milky way illumination, if we're correct about the first light being the light of the milky way. I don't really know what else they could be referring to. AD 1

If we know that older creations made use of the milky way which probably influence what we see in Genesis 1 then that makes a pretty strong case for the mystery light 3 days before the sun or moon. If by a void watery earth they mean the celestial waters as in older myths, then you have a point. AD 2

I was assuming that you understood the mystery astrotheological number 7, or the mystery of 5 and 7 as found in many cultures. But it looks like that comment went unrecognized. For a crash course lecture on the mystery here is an audio archive: LINK

Briefly, Genesis is the product of post Babylonian captivity writing periods. And technically we have nothing earlier than the Septuagint to go by. A guy recently brought forward a theory contrasting Documentary Hypothesis which he has termed Septuagint Priority Hypothesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awg52anmTb8

The idea is that there probably wasn't any organized Hebrew written bible (Tora) collection before the Septuagint, but only oral stories past along and some scattered myths of different variety. But the Greeks, being interested in knowing everyones beliefs probably pressed the Jews for a history of their race and religion. He speculates that in response to that, learned Alexandrian Jews who had access to the libraries began piecing together what would become the Septuagint. That pretty much explains the wide diversity of eastern and western mythological motifs and themes found in the Septuagint and all of the later translations which followed. You know, Brahma / Abram and Sarai / Saraiswati, Moses / King Sargon I, etc. etc. Campbell discovered that the Babylonian Kings list of Berossus corresponds to the ten biblical Patriarchs between Adam and the flood and he pulled the 432 mystery number of the Goddess (in variations - 432,000 and 43,200) out of both myths. So one could credit Campbell for early discoveries concerning what is now becoming the SPH...

But in anycase, we're reading through a very late written document when approaching the creation account in Genesis 1. Way later than the concept of the 7 chakras and all of the other pagan sacred symbolism addressed to the number 7, which yeilds variations in the ancient mysteries between the numbers 5 and 7 (refer to the lecture). Long story short, the reason these numbers have sacred value is because we can see two luminaries and five planets from the earth which stand out from the rest of the celestial objects. In time these numbers were worked into mysteries and 7 was a sacred number the world over (the variations of the 5 and 7 loaves in the gospels also play off of this astrotheological mystery).

What I was pointing out is that writer(s) set up the creation account lGenesis with the number 7 already in mind going into it. The creation is set up in terms of setting up 3 environments followed by the inhabitants to inhabit the 3 environments. Then the 7th day is given as a day of rest. It's the odd ball out, but, they needed to make the creation conform to the number 7 and the Sabbath is the result. This is all astrotheological and addressed to the mystery of the first function (mystery of existence) in relation to the cosmology (sacred 7) of the second function of the myth. AD 3

The missing info link, in my case, is the proposal of the milky way as the unknown "light" that tail ended the first day of creation in Genesis. I've been pouring over this myth all of my life and uncovering different mysteries as I go along, one by one. And in time I've managed to unlock much of this mythology for no other interest than personal reasons. I just want to know as much as I can about the religion I was raised in. Even understanding that it isn't literally true, I'm still interested in knowing everything I can about what it actually is. AD 4
And Robert and I have spent a considerable time trying to decode Genesis, Daniel, and Revelation. During this milky way myth debate - that has spilled over to at least three different forums so far - I started realizing that the debate itself opens a key to unlocking part of the mysteries I've been after...AD 5

Hello Tat,
Tanks for you fine reply and for your information’s.
AD 1: In my opinion, the globally story telling of Creation shall be seen and understood as if you yourself are "floating on the primeval Waters" or in the "waste abyss" when inspirations comes intuitively to you how the principles of creation works. (The Ogdoad elementary principles) You are not on the Earth in this experience, but mentally "in the heavens", (in the mythically and spiritually area for revelations) and beginning to gain some spiritual revelations of the cosmogony and mythology of the Milky Way in which you live. Think of the revelations in the Bible and otherwhere.
Secondly: Hearing or reading of the stories of creation, you have to ignore the word "beginning" because there is no beginning or no end.(The Cosmic Egg) The word "beginning" is just a telling technique in order to tell how the principles are and how they work cyclically in all kind of creational formations.
AD 2: I really mean the waste void of Primeval Waters i.e. the 99.99 % hydrogen and helium and the 00.01 % of dust/soil in the Universe. This is the "mythologically primeval waters and the primeval soil in the voids of heaven".
AD 3: Thanks for your following up on the number 7 issue of which I also have had some thoughts of the chakras connection. (For the time being I haven´t the time to go deeper into this issue)
AD 4: If thinking of the Ogdoad interactive elements, it is very naturally that it takes some times before these swirling elements heats up and merges like in a nuclear process before reaching the glowing temperature and lighten up, right? Can this be the right explanation? I think so indeed.
AD 5: I´m very pleased to read this! It gives me some payback on my works and it is very exciting to follow which further explanations it gives you - and all of us.

NB: For the sake of further clarification, I am thinking of making a brief comparison post between the modern idea (but alternative in some sense) of creation and the mythologically story of Creation.

[tat tvam asi]

I completely agree that "In the beginning" isn't even supposed to mean in the literal beginning, because, of course, according the same mythology there is no beginning for God or his dwelling. So what fixed beginning are we discussing then? That was a point that came up in a recent conversation about creation ex nihilo and how it's merely a figure of speech. Not even the bible really describes a theory of everything coming from literal nothing. There is always something giving rise to something else when analyzed closely.

I do think that the waters of the unformed dark earth is a throw back to earlier myth concerning the celestial waters of space, or primordial waters or abyss, or any number of astromythological terms and descriptions. If you had time to watch the video on SPH it's pretty obvious that the Septuagint writer(s) were taking bits of Egyptian mythology and tossed out others along the way. And there are bits of Sumero - Babylonian myth as well. Just what we would expect if the writers in question were pulling from massive source material of the libraries in Alexandria. This is why I really think that the milky way is the right path for decoding the mystery of the first emergence of "light" in Genesis.

Now as for the mysticism, dreams, and visions you're pushing, the FTN and BT are not really the place for that kind of thing. You're addressing communities of freethinkers pushing logic and reason while researching comparative mythology and people are subject to abrupt scrutiny for supernatural claims and mysticism of any type. You may find a more accepting crowd here at JCF if you wish to include personal vision and revelation into your milky way myth research. I've gone through mystical bents here and there in life but I've also leveled out in the aftermath and tried to contrast with critical thinking and reason. A place like BT will keep you on your toes because any claim is subject to endless scrutiny and skepticism by the atheist dominant community there. So I think you are best to explore these ideas here for the time being. I'm a professed Pantheist, and I am on the naturalist side of the supernatural border.

Atheism--Scientific Pantheism--Pantheism<(Natural)--(Supernatural)>Panentheism--Theisms

[Native]

I completely agree that "In the beginning" isn't even supposed to mean in the literal beginning, because, of course, according the same mythology there is no beginning for God or his dwelling. So what fixed beginning are we discussing then? That was a point that came up in a recent conversation about creation ex nihilo and how it's merely a figure of speech. Not even the bible really describes a theory of everything coming from literal nothing. There is always something giving rise to something else when analyzed closely. AD 1

I do think that the waters of the unformed dark earth is a throw back to earlier myth concerning the celestial waters of space, or primordial waters or abyss, or any number of astromythological terms and descriptions. If you had time to watch the video on SPH it's pretty obvious that the Septuagint writer(s) were taking bits of Egyptian mythology and tossed out others along the way. And there are bits of Sumero - Babylonian myth as well. Just what we would expect if the writers in question were pulling from massive source material of the libraries in Alexandria. This is why I really think that the milky way is the right path for decoding the mystery of the first emergence of "light" in Genesis. AD 2

Now as for the mysticism, dreams, and visions you're pushing, the FTN and BT are not really the place for that kind of thing. You're addressing communities of freethinkers pushing logic and reason while researching comparative mythology and people are subject to abrupt scrutiny for supernatural claims and mysticism of any type. You may find a more accepting crowd here at JCF if you wish to include personal vision and revelation into your milky way myth research. I've gone through mystical bents here and there in life but I've also leveled out in the aftermath and tried to contrast with critical thinking and reason. A place like BT will keep you on your toes because any claim is subject to endless scrutiny and skepticism by the atheist dominant community there. So I think you are best to explore these ideas here for the time being. I'm a professed Pantheist, and I am on the naturalist side of the supernatural border. AD 3

Atheism--Scientific Pantheism--Pantheism<Natural>Panentheism--Theisms

AD 1: Agreed. That is precisely why the Big Bang is completely illogical, unscientifically and un-falsifiable and that´s why the mythically and cyclically stories of creation are more correct if interpreting these myths as real cosmological knowledge, which I do indeed.
AD 2: Writers and authors that doesn´t have the direct revelation experience, are constantly distorting the real and genuine mythically experiences of other people when taking over an oral or a literal telling.
AD 3: I think you maybe are right here.
I too am a pantheist and on the native side of the supernatural border - which in fact is borderless since this includes the shamanic spiritual traditions. But when I write and read "gods and goddesses," I just think "natural creative powers and qualities of all kind".

[tat tvam asi]

So then you feel that these creations myths, the early ones which were later re-worked, were intuitive insights into the actual birth of the universe?

Perhaps. There's another path which I ventured down which compares the really old creation myths of northern Africa and abroad to what know in science. This is the path John Anthony West, Walter Cruttenden, Laird Scranton, and others, are promoting with their books and CPAK conventions. They think that these old myths are the remnant of an ancient advanced global society. Others feel that alien contact was taking place or some combination of the two was in order. And from there you can draw a line of descent to Egypt and from Egypt it spreads out into the emergence of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. So there's lots to consider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oN2gqfumfo

If you get a chance to watch the above clip you'll get a pretty good idea of what I'm referring to. There are things like a seemingly known understanding about the particle / duality in all light and matter and a variety of strange correspondences. The creation myths seem to give away a knowledge of atomic break down and the structure of matter. I spent some time wondering if it were possible that these myths were caused by a type of self knowledge, not necessarily conscious, but a type of self awareness of the universe itself experienced through us. But that seems pretty far fetched compared to the other options, as far fetched as they are. But it's all entertaining to consider.

[Native]

So then you feel that these creations myths, the early ones which were later re-worked, were intuitive insights into the actual birth of the universe? AD 1

Perhaps. There's another path which I ventured down which compares the really old creation myths of northern Africa and abroad to what know in science. This is the path John Anthony West, Walter Cruttenden, Laird Scranton, and others, are promoting with their books and CPAK conventions. They think that these old myths are the remnant of an ancient advanced global society. Others feel that alien contact was taking place or some combination of the two was in order. And from there you can draw a line of descent to Egypt and from Egypt it spreads out into the emergence of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. So there's lots to consider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oN2gqfumfo AD 2

If you get a chance to watch the above clip you'll get a pretty good idea of what I'm referring to. There are things like a seemingly known understanding about the particle / duality in all light and matter and a variety of strange correspondences. The creation myths seem to give away a knowledge of atomic break down and the structure of matter. I spent some time wondering if it were possible that these myths were caused by a type of self knowledge, not necessarily conscious, but a type of self awareness of the universe itself experienced through us. But that seems pretty far fetched compared to the other options, as far fetched as they are. But it's all entertaining to consider. AD 3

Tat,
Very interesting things here. Thanks.
AD 1: No, not of the birth of the Universe as such, (because it has always been) but of how the elementary principles of creation IN the Universe are working and of how the specific creation of our galaxy took place.
AD 2: The contents of the video are also very interesting. Many people are of the meaning that there must have been cultural exchanges - and there have - but going a long time back, I think the common mythologically/religious knowledge and symbols just as well could have emerged via sensitive individuals all over the world have gained the same knowledge by having the same spiritually experiences of the cosmos.
(Also noticing the Dogon 8-elementary qualities as in Ogdoad)
AD 3: Your wonderings of "these myths were caused by a type of self knowledge", is not far fetched in my opinion at all.
- When individuals have cosmological/spiritually experiences "a la revelations", a la shamans etc., BOTH things happens: They gain knowledge of the cosmos; of the creational principles, and they gain knowledge of themselves at the same time. Where we fit in in this cosmos and what created us etc. etc. This is a "cosmologically know thyself process" in the broadest meaning.
So it goes both ways, don´t you think?

[Bhagavan Das]

Correlation between Creationism and Evolutionary theory

atheism is vacuum in a soul, spiritual emptiness, it can be considered perceptive deterioration, if agnosticism is border line between religious perception and atheism, correlation with Freud/Jung would be that agnosticism is correlative to semiconsciousness, religious codex gave birth to consciousness/spirit , subconsciousness is "boiling pat of instincts" (Freud), animalistic evolutionary layer of psyche , religious metaphoric representation (Joseph Campbell) of it is devil, evil, sin; what’s considered in religion possession is psychology (that like other humanities including philosophy developed from religion ) is referred as mental disorder, illness, psychosis. Unprecedented intellect of Immanuel Kant considered religion still superior to philosophy, mind being just aspect of spiritual. Individual of collective spiritual epilepsy might indicate that evolution of mankind is still a process - Discomfort in culture - Freud, written in between World Wars and foreshadowed human inability to prevent global catastrophe , psychoanalysis itself rooted in Greek philosophy and mythology , where there is correlation
Zeus- superego
Poseidon- consciousness
Hades- subconsciousness
Early Christians defended themselves from prosecution that included throwing them to lions in Coliseum for entertainment purposes, with "we are only preaching Plato", Greek philosophy was saved by Arabs and Islam and Greek philosophy influenced Renaissance that brought Europe out of Dark Ages, Islamic cultural motives can be found in art of Renaissance. Renaissance prizing and importance of Greek philosophy was timelessly painted by Raphael in - School of Athens.

Philosophy is collection of perceptive patterns, where Greeks created major ripple of consciousness, Romans copied Greeks , among other thinks origins of Roman architecture is copying Ancient Greece; it was Greeks who through contemplation concluded that everything is composed of same thing - Atomists ; however those perceptive patterns differ , they don't exclude each other, rather there are part of, components of, elements of one, of singular ; therefor there is - insufficiency of linear thinking or linear perceptive pattern , all of them together map consciousness ; philosophy is mapping consciousness ; In Islam its forbidden to use images only patterns to describe spiritual , giving omnipresent Deity, force image presentation is narrowing it down , overrationalising can be misleading, insufficient, limiting, where it loses on its main characteristic that is omnipresence (Emerson) ; life is mater in motion that with humans its aware of its existence and surroundings, that is conscious of itself, and in that sense remains still somewhat of a mystery ; consciousness is what separates us from animals.
Devil wares many masks one of them is God's. We are coming from four faiths, Sarajevo is equivalent to Jerusalem. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions. Christianity is fraction of Judaism and Islam is fraction of Judeo- Christian belief system, Moses and Jesus are prophets in Islam, Allah is a word that means God, all faiths on that language prey to Allah. It's all one faith.
"All truth is one. In this light may science and religion endeavor here for the steady evolution of mankind. From darkness to light, from narrowness to broad-mindedness, from prejudice to tolerance, it is the voice of life, which calls us to come and learn. (Inscription discovered by Stoll, inscribed on the bell atop Hays Hall at his undergraduate university. He recounted this experience in his talk at the TED Conference in February, 2006.) "
Transcript of Stoll’s talk at TED in February, 2006.
“Facts are many, but the truth is one.” Rabindranath Tagore quotes
"Truth is one, paths are many."
— Mahatma Gandhi

[Roncooper]

Native,

I am new to JCF and have been facinated by your discussion. You might enjoy an alternative view to creation stories. It was given by Alan Watts in an audio lecture titled, "Images of man." He does a really nice job of describing the God becoming concept. I think it should still be available.

To put it in a simple non-religious way: Today does not create tomorrow. Today evolves into tomorrow, or more simply, today becomes tomorrow.

In the same way the whole thing, this mystery-reality of ours, became the cosmos and humanity, and seeing in this way affects one's consciousness.

In any case Watts does a much better job than I did. I think you will enjoy it.

Ron

If you haven't found your bliss, follow your giggles

[Native]

Hello Roncooper,

Thanks for your reply.

I´ve listened to the video of Alan Watts and I agree so far that in our disconnectedness from nature we become isolated from the very creation itself and this is a great pity because it is via the natural vibrations of electromagnetic fields inside and outside us that we can experience and gain the information of the creation.

It is via this close natural connection that sensitive people all over the world gained the intuitive knowledge, which can be read of in the many global Stories of Creation, which of course is very similar since we all live on the same Planet; in the same Solar System; in the same Milky Way galaxy, in the same Universe.

Read more here:

Alternative Cosmology - http://vixra.org/pdf/1109.0013v1.pdf

Mytho-Cosmology - http://vixra.org/pdf/1109.0065v1.pdf

Mario Everaldo de Souza, Universidade Federal de Sergipe, Departamento de Física - Alternative Galaxy Formation - http://vixra.org/pdf/1112.0014v1.pdf

[Roncooper]

Native,

I'm glad you enjoyed it and hope you found this version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvcUwl_VZWw I didn't realize there were little 10 minute versions with music.

I especially enjoyed the comparison of western culures and the concept of a creator God and a seperate creation and eastern cultures where God becomes the universe and acts out reality. There is no creation in this view. You are God being you, enjoying you, and working for a better tomorrow.

This image is held by a billion people and should be included in any attempt to develop a general mythology.

And besides it is certainly an interesting way to look at things.

Ron

If you haven't found your bliss, follow your giggles

[SMacArthur]

As found in my previous post in the Mythology Forum didn't catch yours but I feel they are in line (Also still reading the previous pages so bear with me ) :

Why has religion lasted so long? After much studying I believe there are two MAIN reasons for religion 1. A Higher Power (Obviously right?) and 2. Morality. Lets look at the etymology for religion as stated in http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=religion

Etymology for the word Religion

...According to Cicero derived from relegere "go through again" (in reading or in thought), from re- "again" (see re-) + legere "read" (see lecture (n.)). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (Servius, Lactantius, Augustine) and the interpretation of many modern writers connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods." In that case, the re- would be intensive. Another possible origin is religiens "careful..."

Society keeps religion because we NEED a sense of morality. We have been taught for as long as we can remember that religion is our basis for such things. Which brings us to the question if there is no higher power then how has this "myth" lasted for so long and where did it begin? The definition for Myth, according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

Full Definition of MYTH

1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly [apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually] historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon
b : parable, allegory
2
a : a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced>
b : an unfounded or false notion
3
: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence....

So why then do we associate the word legend

Definition of Legend according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... 1380620374

Full Definition of LEGEND

1
a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable
.........
c : an explanatory list of the symbols on a map or chart

And what words do we associate with Legend? Key, Guide, Scale, and Table.
Is it fair to say that religion then is considered a guide to life? As such society needs it to function. With that being said does that mean even if you were raised in a non religious household you have been imbued with religion? If so, then are you truly Atheist as you may claim? And doesn't that make the Nature vs Nurture Idealism faulty, then? Religion has been dated back to as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion
says:

223,000 – 100,000 BCE
The earliest evidence of Hominids, such as Neanderthals[2][3] and even Homo heidelbergensis,[3][4] deliberately disposing of deceased individuals usually in funerary caches. The graves, located throughout Eurasia (e.g. the Pontnewydd Cave, Atapuerca Mountains, Qafzeh, Es Skhul, Krapina),[3] are believed to represent the beginnings of ceremonial rites, although there is some debate about this.

Interesting, even though there was no written record there was right and wrong. Would you not agree? As http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial says:

Intentional burial, particularly with grave goods, may be one of the earliest detectable forms of religious practice since, as Philip Lieberman suggests, it may signify a "concern for the dead that transcends daily life."[1] Though disputed, evidence suggests that the Neanderthals were the first human species to intentionally bury the dead, doing so in shallow graves along with stone tools and animal bones.

So why did it last this long???? Because of right and wrong, or more? What started religion if it isn't real? There has to be some truth to it! Would that mean that there has to be some truth to Supernatural beings? In laymen's terms Men who turn in to animals, people who can shift emotions, people with "un-natural" abilities. What about King Arthur himself? If there is then can we say myths are as real as pain? Pain is in the mind. Just as fear is. My favorite quote by my adopted grandfather is "Fear is as real as the person who experiences it." Therefore isn't religion, pain, inhumane abilities, ect...all real? Therefore religion is real, but if religion is real shouldn't these other doctrines be just as real? I know this seems off topic but quite the contrary it has to do with myths maybe not the myths you are thinking of but non the less myths. just honestly curious.

Curious as to who else has thought of this and other provoking thoughts. Also if you need clarification let me know it took all night to write this.

[Native]

SMacArthur,

Thanks for your interest and post,

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Etymology
“Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare or "to reconnect”.

AD: I also prefer the definition of “religion” as “connect” and “reconnect” or simply an intuitive connection that goes both ways and as such information and communication also can go both ways and interact.

When studying native people, they often speak of the connectedness with nature and that everything is connected. When so, it is impossible to say anything about when humans historically got the “first religious ideas”.

What is most important to me is the fact that ancient people all over the world could/can tell very similar Stories of Creation because of their closely connectedness to the cosmological nature on Earth and outside Earth.

This common knowledge is only possible because we all live on the same Earth, in the same Solar System and in the same Galaxy and this intuitive religious connection of course give all people the same information of the Creation which, by the way, is very close connected to the Milky Way Mythology.

Yes, religion can be really painful when it is misinterpreted, misused and abused. But when personally experienced and followed naturally, religion can be a true guidance in life. A guidance that you even can experience directly inside yourself and feel what is right for you and your society.

[Andreas]

Hey guys,

I also have thought of this a lot and have concluded that..

I agree with native, in that my own understanding of what religion means comes closer to a connection with life. In this sense religion is very important in our lives and will not go away, ever... Religion will exist, because we, humans, need this connection. Whether it is in the form of art, and true art is always religious, or science, or nature, it will be there.

Something else about religion or mythology is that it helps harmonize our fears, desires and all that stuff that make us human.

That being said, I understand how mythology or religion can be abused and misinterpreted but I think this is a human trait that can manifest in any form.

So yeah, this is my opinion.

[flangham]

MY FIRST POST
Yes, religion is a connected to our daily lives, a guidebook and scaffolding for us to use to get through this existence. The belief systems we call religion have been born from humanity, to try and link back to an ultimate reality. These schools or major world religions are the handbooks to live a better life. In my opinion, and JC’s that is it. Reading any religious text as prose (fact) and not as poetry is a serious misreading of the myth. Religio means to link back, to link back to what? to that which cannot be expressed in words, that which our religious texts try to express in metaphor. God, Brahma, are reflections of the truth. There are no facts in our religious texts only truths hiding to be exposed through deep introspection. Religions and myths are only the reflection of the truth, not the truth itself.

I hope to share my thoughts on JC's and deep respect for JC's an man I consider a mentor in my life. I have quoted JC ideas heavily in my opinion.

[Native]

Hello flangham,
Thanks for your post and Good Luck with further postings. I hope you´ll have som comments on the specific topic of "One Mythology - One Religion - One Cosmology - One People", based on the Milky Way Mythology and Stories of Creation.