How would you answer this question?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

1. Enforces the subjugation of the majority into the servitude of the minority.
2. Enforces society structure and adherence to social norms.
3. provides justification for the current political system.
4. reinforces an "us" vs. "them" mentality so that those in power remain in power.
"Oh!" replies the insect-like Kif from within his shadowed hood. "That's precisely the model we require."

The sound that followed translates roughly as an evil chuckle.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'd be careful as to how I'd answer the question, because that one could convince the visitor that either evolution had designed the perfect slave, or that our species should be put out of its misery before we get off planet and infect the rest of the galaxy.

Best to leave (gender non-specific) guessing:

"Religion? Depends on who you ask. Generally it's all wrapped up in life, death and our metaphysical place in the order of the cosmos. But that's just me. Someone else may say that if you want eternal life, you have to get dunked in water and rail against gay marriage to your last breath and everyone else is eternally screwed, and since Man is made in God's image, I'm afraid even the water dunk won't work for you. Another person may point to the flight of a bird and say, 'See?'

And if you walk into a Catholic Church, you may get the wrong idea about what's hanging over the altar. He was a special case requiring further explanation and we don't do that anymore.

...Well, not exactly that. I could go on."

Alien does the equivalent of an extraterrestrial confused headshake, and leaves a "quarantined" signal beacon just beyond the orbit of Neptune on his way out of the neighborhood.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry.... thought I'd have a little creative fun, although there may be a point in there somewhere.

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Evinnra
Associate
Posts: 2102
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Melbourne

Post by Evinnra »

noman wrote:I forgot to tell you Evinnra. The Xanudians left me a device that allows me to see just when you're about to post so I can beat you to the post by three minutes every time if I want.

The Zuraquians have no need to lie. They operate rationally. And they destroy entire planets to make room for their kind. It's just nature running its course, but with a higher consciousness. They can't be happy or sad about the 'predatory behavior'. It's just passionless action, like mowing the lawn.

- NoMan
:oops: :shock: Hope this device does not let you see me in the shower ...

By the way, they couldn't make this claim go past me that what they are doing is just 'nature running its course'. If there are ways to deal with avalanches, then there are ways to deal with Zuraquians as well, no? 8)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

Hope this device does not let you see me in the shower ...
This immediately made me think of how nuns used to put screens over top of their shower stalls so that God would not seem them in the buff! :lol: Too funny!
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

lancimouspitt
Associate
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: How would you answer this question?

Post by lancimouspitt »

jonsjourney wrote:I was reading a book on religion, as I so often find myself doing and an interesting question was put forth, so I thought this would be a great place to ask it...

If a spaceship landed in your backyard today and an alien emerged that you were able to communicate with and the alien said to you...

"We have been watching you folks for a while now, but we are unclear on something...
What is this thing you call religion?"

Well...???

How do you think you would answer that question, assuming that you were the only representative of this world who would be providing an answer to represent the Earth?

I have to avoid answering this question,and instead discuss more about what alien life itself might be like.

Their's something I like to call the principal of imaginitive thought.
Basicly,whether we live on earth or somewhere out in deep space 9,I think to some degrees intelligent life would think in certain ways like us.
I think it would be safe to assume they are conscious.
For ET to build a spacecraft that could travel to earth,they would have to sit down and imagine all the dangers that might confront them on their journey.
If they can do this,they must have a sense of fear.
From their I can assume they share a good lot of other emotions with us.
Lastly,much like man has done sense nearly it's beginning,at some point or another they would have to ask," is their something greater than us?"

They may go about things in different ways,and of course this is just a theory,but I think in applying imaginitive thought to alien life,we would have to assume they would be similar to us.

Evinnra
Associate
Posts: 2102
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: How would you answer this question?

Post by Evinnra »

lancimouspitt wrote:


Their's something I like to call the principal of imaginitive thought.
Basicly,whether we live on earth or somewhere out in deep space 9,I think to some degrees intelligent life would think in certain ways like us.
I think it would be safe to assume they are conscious.
For ET to build a spacecraft that could travel to earth,they would have to sit down and imagine all the dangers that might confront them on their journey.
If they can do this,they must have a sense of fear.
From their I can assume they share a good lot of other emotions with us.
Lastly,much like man has done sense nearly it's beginning,at some point or another they would have to ask," is their something greater than us?"

They may go about things in different ways,and of course this is just a theory,but I think in applying imaginitive thought to alien life,we would have to assume they would be similar to us.
Yes, indeed, how could they possibly get here without having this question appear in their mind first? By accident? :?
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

lancimouspitt
Associate
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: How would you answer this question?

Post by lancimouspitt »

Evinnra wrote:
lancimouspitt wrote:


Their's something I like to call the principal of imaginitive thought.
Basicly,whether we live on earth or somewhere out in deep space 9,I think to some degrees intelligent life would think in certain ways like us.
I think it would be safe to assume they are conscious.
For ET to build a spacecraft that could travel to earth,they would have to sit down and imagine all the dangers that might confront them on their journey.
If they can do this,they must have a sense of fear.
From their I can assume they share a good lot of other emotions with us.
Lastly,much like man has done sense nearly it's beginning,at some point or another they would have to ask," is their something greater than us?"

They may go about things in different ways,and of course this is just a theory,but I think in applying imaginitive thought to alien life,we would have to assume they would be similar to us.
Yes, indeed, how could they possibly get here without having this question appear in their mind first? By accident? :?
That's what I wonder.
Even if they seemed to have a different thought process altogether,I would think then,that we as humanity would have to assume that at one time in their evolution that they had to have been much like us.
Maybe they advanced past that,and are at a more advanced stage in conscious thought than us.

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

lancimouspitt Wrote:
Maybe they advanced past that,and are at a more advanced stage in conscious thought than us.
I am of the opinion that this higher consciousness is a requirement for space travel. To me, if we haven't acheived this stage, we have no business in space.

I guess I'm hoping that "Star Wars" is only fiction, and that beings capable of interstellar travel have evolved beyond the age of childish nonsense. :?:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

this higher consciousness is a requirement for space travel.
Interesting point! On the one hand, I recall reading somewhere that the prerequisite for space travel is first surviving the discovery of nuclear energy. In other words, if we don't destroy ourselves, then we'll possibly develop viable technologies for space travel.

I will agree that not destroying ourselves will require a bit of consciousness advancement... and the jury is still out. That we built enough nukes to sanitize the planet is not an encouraging fact. That we haven't used them since WWII is encouraging, as is the fact that reason won the day during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It very nearly didn't. Very, very, very nearly.

But this part of the test isn't over, so stay tuned!

Also, developing viable technologies for space travel will require a planetary effort (as I argued in the space travel thread). That, too, will require a little evolving in the consciousness department! (Or maybe it's a matter of economics. More and more young Americans are moving to Asia because that's where the jobs are. Enough mixing it up like that and we're liable to forget about national boundaries like international corporations already have. Hmmm.....)

Beyond that, it will be technology that takes us off planet. Higher consciousness would just become part of the Q Continuum!
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

Clemsy wrote:
I will agree that not destroying ourselves will require a bit of consciousness advancement... and the jury is still out.
Society Code: Humanity
Probability of Survival (per 100 yr): 40% - Carl Sagan from Cosmos (p. 314)
Conversely
Society Code: We Who Became One
Probability of survival (per 10,000,000): 99% -Carl Sagan from Cosmos (p.313)
Mmmmmm..... :wink:
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

Evinnra
Associate
Posts: 2102
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Melbourne

Post by Evinnra »

Clemsy wrote:
this higher consciousness is a requirement for space travel.
Interesting point! On the one hand, I recall reading somewhere that the prerequisite for space travel is first surviving the discovery of nuclear energy. In other words, if we don't destroy ourselves, then we'll possibly develop viable technologies for space travel.

I will agree that not destroying ourselves will require a bit of consciousness advancement... and the jury is still out. That we built enough nukes to sanitize the planet is not an encouraging fact. That we haven't used them since WWII is encouraging, as is the fact that reason won the day during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It very nearly didn't. Very, very, very nearly.

But this part of the test isn't over, so stay tuned!

Also, developing viable technologies for space travel will require a planetary effort (as I argued in the space travel thread). That, too, will require a little evolving in the consciousness department! (Or maybe it's a matter of economics. More and more young Americans are moving to Asia because that's where the jobs are. Enough mixing it up like that and we're liable to forget about national boundaries like international corporations already have. Hmmm.....)

Beyond that, it will be technology that takes us off planet. Higher consciousness would just become part of the Q Continuum!
Good points Clemsy, ist's just .... what is this 'higher consciousness' we talking about? From what you write it seems quite obvious - to me at least - that it is an Ethical development of the global human consciousness that is required for space travel. Getting right certain answers to certain questions, to have a clearly expressible moral guideline - a categorical imperative perhaps - that unifies us. No? What if aliens came here and we could not accept their moral standards? Would they be responsible for diluting our faculties before we could naturally develop our own 'space age' unity? I'm just having fun with these hypotheticals, :roll: :)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

What if aliens came here and we could not accept their moral standards? Would they be responsible for diluting our faculties before we could naturally develop our own 'space age' unity? -Evinnra
If they were in the majority by bringing forth greater numbers or by demonstrating a greater technology, those who have claimed to hold the moral high ground as a "majority" would find themselves forced to question the absolute authority of the system they have been identifying with. This would pretty much amount to...evolve or fall into the mass of flawed ideas whose time had come and gone...

Those who evolve may realize the consciousness necessary to rise to new levels of existence.

Those who cling to the old systems would, like someone who worships Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, Mohammad, Christ, or The Buddha, fall by the wayside and pass into irrelevance.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Evinnra
Associate
Posts: 2102
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:12 pm
Location: Melbourne

Post by Evinnra »

:shock: You mean 'the stronger dog will ...' ? You mean it is always the strongest that survives and you mean the strongest is the fittest? :shock: I rest my case .... *big sigh* (This penchant for change is beginning to wear thin on me, as the word it self is beginning to lose its meaning.)
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

You mean it is always the strongest that survives and you mean the strongest is the fittest? -Evinnra
Well, if one is looking at it from the perspective of Evolution by natural selection, this appears to be the case, right? But does it have to be traumatic?

Think about it. If someone comes along tomorrow with information that says that intergalactic travel is easy, ie. we have just been looking at the problem the wrong way so far, would this be a source of unease or a source of new knowledge to be incorporated into our consciousness? It may be a new, previously unheard of, way of looking at something, but it would be a better way, so it would therefore be worthy of incorporation.

Has there been a case in our history so far in which "the weaker" has survived? It is a cruel system on the surface, isn't it? Yet, and I have had this discussion with a few friends, this does not necessarily mean that we have to participate in the aggression that often accompanies evolutionary progress. After all, the Swedes seem to be getting along fine up there and they aren't jumping into any wars as a society. The Dalai Lama chose to leave Tibet rather than fight, and probably die. He lived to fight another day, in another way. His choice to live a good life with compassion and dignity has been far more effective than direct, aggressive confrontation.

I think that some see the incorporation of new ideas into our 'meme' pool as being dangerous, like having to go into battle. So the easy road involves standing firm in an ideal or way of living, even if it is misplaced or unhealthy. But...using Buddhism as described by the Dalai Lama as an example...it is possible for a system of beliefs to evolve with the society in which it exists. This is a key tenet of the system in which he operates. If new information comes along that disproves a long held belief, the false belief is cast off and the new, better information is taken in. This is spiritual evolution, right? This way of looking at our universe is not causing undue stress and discomfort to the Dalai Lama or the millions of Buddhists who follow this same system of thought.

It seems we have choice. We can stand firm against the tides of change and resist like a break wall against the sea, or we can accept that change is inevitable, and healthy. We do not make progress standing still or locking into outmoded ideas. If we accept the idea of impermanence in the universe, it is far less disturbing when the changes arrive. We need not use aggression or lose our moral compass, we simply need to incorporate better ideas when they come along. The student who stood his ground in Tiananmen Square chose non-aggression, yet affected a wind of change. It may have not amounted to much more than the flap of a butterfly's wings, but the breeze will be strong by the time it comes back around.
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Cindy B.
Working Associate
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:49 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Cindy B. »

You mean it is always the strongest that survives and you mean the strongest is the fittest?
The terms "strongest" and "fittest" are dated. Consider thinking in terms of "best adapted to a particular environment" when it comes to which groups or species are likely to survive the longest over time.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

what is this 'higher consciousness' we talking about? From what you write it seems quite obvious - to me at least - that it is an Ethical development of the global human consciousness that is required for space travel. Getting right certain answers to certain questions, to have a clearly expressible moral guideline - a categorical imperative perhaps - that unifies us. No?
Yes!
What if aliens came here and we could not accept their moral standards? Would they be responsible for diluting our faculties before we could naturally develop our own 'space age' unity?
That's a standard SF situation. It's the theme behind Star Trek's Prime Directive:
The Prime Directive dictates that there can be no interference with the internal development of pre-warp civilizations,..It has special implications, however, for civilizations that have not yet developed the technology for interstellar spaceflight ("pre-warp"), since no primitive culture can be given or exposed to any information regarding advanced technology or the existence of extraplanetary civilizations, lest this exposure alter the natural development of the civilization.
Other visions see the interference of vastly advanced cultures as having a devastating impact on the psychology of the species.

Given what we know about the effect on the indigenous cultures in Africa, the Americas, Oceania and Asia by Europeans, one would hope that visiting extraterrestrials would be very careful, and their impact on our psychology and moral standards would very much depend on their psychology and moral standards.

Personally, I'm of the mind that such a culture's interference would be evidence of questionable morality. A wait and see approach would seem to be wise for a species that remains attached to tribal boundaries and plays with nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. To those advanced to interstellar travel, we would seem rather... immature.

Besides, the moral standards of an alien culture may not translate to something we can even comprehend.

Or, perhaps, there is a common evolution of moral standards among sentient species no matter where in the universe you are. If morality and ethics serve survival, then an evolved morality and ethic would eliminate ethnic, tribal and national boundaries... which is a prerequisite for the development of space travel. So premature exposure to such a culture could result in serious damage to our own development and spark the use of the weapons mentioned above.

Maybe if they just did a fly-by... kind of like saying, "Yoo-hoo! We're out here!" would be enough of a tease to get a little serious cooperation going on down here.

Fun stuff.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Locked