Why is it so difficult to leave religion?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Locked
Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

fourniernorman wrote:Syncretism: Isn't this the combining of various influences in ones life to come up with your own belief system? Otherwise know as the path to bliss, or for those whom it may be, lead into a path of destruction or perhaps confusion. I prefer to call it one's own journey. All of our paths meet in the end perhaps?
Hi fourniernorman and welcome to the JCF Conversations of a Higher Order!

The dictionary defines syncretism thusly"
the attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion.
It pretty much boils down to, "God is unknowable, so any one god is just as good as any other."

Campbell distinguished between ethnic and syncretic religions. Syncretism was common in the ancient world, where parallels between pantheons were often drawn, major cities had temples to just about every god under the sun and moon, and some had a temple to the unknown god to cover anyone who may have been missed. They really didn't care what god you worshiped.

The ethnic religions, those of the biblical tradition being the most obvious, claimed exclusive rights to a one and only true god. The result of this is still rampant in the Middle East, and contemporary American politics.

Your definition seems to fit the bill. I guess to 'be syncretic' is not only to follow your own path, but to respect the validity of other's paths.

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

I guess to 'be syncretic' is not only to follow your own path, but to respect the validity of other's paths. -Clemsy.
Difficult Stuff. And I am talking about myself here. Although I like to believe that I am open minded, I wonder how many times I try to defend my own point of view.

How can you respect other's paths if they are conflicting with your own?
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

How can you respect other's paths if they are conflicting with your own?
It's only a conflict if someone is trying to coerce someone else. Even then, it's not the other person's 'path' that's being difficult. It's the person. The issue is always, "What's right for me has to be right for everyone or else I'm wrong."

That's infantile.

If two paths don't meet, but the people involved are just fine with that, than what's the problem?

Being 'right' is highly overrated. :lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

Being 'right' is highly overrated. :lol:
And the benefits of being 'wrong' are underrated. :lol:
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

Dionysus
Associate
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Location: Pittsfield, MA

Post by Dionysus »

Founier, Hi. Long time no post. Welcome. re: syncretism, This is the point of Joe's CREATIVE MYTHOLOGY, I think. We have a bounty of human myth and religious and philosophical thought going back 20,000 or so years from which to choose. 8000 years of agricultural development, 6-7,000 years of written records, and given that no ONE represents the actual truth, we, as people of the 21st century, have the luxury of sifting through all of this and creating our own PERSONAL (how Western!) belief system.

Fundamentalism is in its death throes and like any wounded beast is still dangerous. We are one of the first earthly generations to enjoy complete freedom of faith, but one must be careful IMHO.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

Fundamentalism is in its death throes
D, this may be a bit premature. Indeed, 'fundamentalism,' I suspect, is a human tendency that will always find something to latch onto.

The only antidote, as Jefferson said, is to enlighten the people. In other words, provide open avenues of information. The influence of fundamentalism on a culture at any given time is an indication of that culture's health. Fundamentalism maintains itself through suppression of information. Book banning, for example, is a tool of religion to keep 'dangerous ideas' under wraps. Still goes on.

I don't foresee the extinction of this tendency. I think it's part of human nature, and we have to be on guard against its expression, even, or especially, in us who consider ourselves immune to it.

Just found this quite by Phillip Pullman, author of His Dark Materials:
Religion, uncontaminated by power, can be the source of a great deal of private solace, artistic inspiration, and moral wisdom. But when it gets its hands on the levers of political or social authority, it goes rotten very quickly indeed.
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

fourniernorman
Associate
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:43 pm
Location: Manchester NH

corruption

Post by fourniernorman »

The fundamentalist view is trully exclusionary. Each of us is always correct ( or at least most of us semiconscious beings ) in our own minds. The splitting of one view into new " congregations " of thought and practice has become syncratic in it's own rite. Deconstructively, western religions have included pagan and even polytheistic practices for a thousand years. Take the Easter bunny, the xmas tree, the worship of Mary or the saints in christianity. If I don't like the flavor of the icecream today, I'll either choose or create a new one. The danger to us all is the view that I, Me, You are The One who is correct, and yet most are insistant that this is so for them, thus it must be so for all of us. Each in our own mind is all that we shall find.
Everything is Bliss, Even the non-existence of same.

Dionysus
Associate
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:07 pm
Location: Pittsfield, MA

Post by Dionysus »

I don't foresee the extinction of this tendency. I think it's part of human nature, and we have to be on guard against its expression, even, or especially, in us who consider ourselves immune to it.
I was just bein' hopeful. Actually I DO believe that these faiths ARE in crises. The tenor of the violence being perpetrated by these faiths is (at least by death count) on a par with the Crusades. You Know they're feeling the strain.

Folk like us, those who are actively involved in a creative mythology cannot be lumped with the fundamentalist horde. We have no fundamental book, or teaching that has us in the grasp of its truth.
Deconstructively, western religions have included pagan and even polytheistic practices for a thousand years. Take the Easter bunny, the xmas tree, the worship of Mary or the saints in christianity.
Four, Western religion was nature-worshiping and polytheistic for thousands of years BEFORE the coming of the Semitic truth-givers. They admit that their mythology is a borrowed one (at least the Christians and the Muhammadans do). These were all just tales, made true by the coming of _______ (fill in the blank). The Xmas tree, was an element added to a celebration that was a minor one, until the 18th or 19th century. The Easter bunny was probably the same. The WORSHIP of Mary wasn't truly confirmed until THIS century. Yes, these elements are pagan in the derivation, but they were not added to the canon AS the Axis Mundi or as a symbol of rebirth (as the rabbit in the moon - the moon being synonymous with re-birth after its three days in the underdark). The Saints were a very convenient way to undercut nature worshiping religions and supplant them with the belief system which was being sold to them (with fire and sword, I might add).

Neoplato
Associate
Posts: 3907
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:02 pm
Location: Virginia
Contact:

Post by Neoplato »

We have no fundamental book, or teaching that has us in the grasp of its truth.-D
And to add to that, we don’t have anybody telling us what is right and wrong and who to vote for. Not to mention the 7 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Marys.
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

fourniernorman
Associate
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:43 pm
Location: Manchester NH

Bravo to you Both

Post by fourniernorman »

Truly Trimiculously ( My freely chosen word ) Tremendous. ( My spelling ). It is a farce to believe in anything anyone tells you. On my facebook page is my current saying: I am me, You are you, and We are we. My real friends know you have to add, and whats wrong with that! The point being as C might say, as long as your journey doesn't interfere nor impede mine then what does it matter. The problems then arise when I, You or they choose to complicate her his your or my journey. If we could all just be sensible we could all worship as we wish and wouldn't have to be having this discussion at all. I'm doing this on my phone and its tedious. So heres a quote 4 U. "We know how cruel the world often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling." Henri Poincare.
Everything is Bliss, Even the non-existence of same.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

Folk like us, those who are actively involved in a creative mythology cannot be lumped with the fundamentalist horde.
Didn't mean to give you the idea I thought this, D. What I mean is that, without being vigilant, even Creative Mythology can establish a fundamentalist dogma.
I was just bein' hopeful. Actually I DO believe that these faiths ARE in crises. The tenor of the violence being perpetrated by these faiths is (at least by death count) on a par with the Crusades. You Know they're feeling the strain.
D, they've been violent for millennia. And its only certain elements that are in constant crisis, because they've defined the outside threat as critical. Most Christians, Jews and Muslims are not concerned with this 'threat.'

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

fourniernorman
Associate
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:43 pm
Location: Manchester NH

Human Nature. Animal Nature.

Post by fourniernorman »

So then in order to maintain interest faiths are always in crisis. The FLU during WW1 Killed what percentage of the planet ( humans ) and tribes, cities, nations and people have been systematicly eliminated since the dawn of time.Was this the fundamentalists or the other name at the time? FACT is for every positive there is a negative, every left a right and every north a south. Participation is the key. Each side of any battle must sway the tide and WIN! HURRAH! JC might say! Let the battle begin and Last Forever More! HURRAH! Funny thing about the tides though, they come and go. So do the fundamentalists and so has every civilization before us; but we're so superior to that; what are we immune?
Everything is Bliss, Even the non-existence of same.

Clemsy
Working Associate
Posts: 10645
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:00 am
Location: The forest... somewhere north of Albany
Contact:

Post by Clemsy »

So then in order to maintain interest faiths are always in crisis.
I think, fourniernorman, that it's more accurate to say 'elements of some faiths.' Those that organize, legislate, ban works of art, justify violence against those 'outside', do not represent all members of whatever faith they adhere to.
FACT is for every positive there is a negative, every left a right and every north a south. Participation is the key. Each side of any battle must sway the tide and WIN! HURRAH! JC might say! Let the battle begin and Last Forever More! HURRAH!
Sounds just about right! Keeps things interesting, no?
Funny thing about the tides though, they come and go. So do the fundamentalists and so has every civilization before us;


Just so.
...but we're so superior to that; what are we immune?
We do have a tendency to act that way, until "in the long run" catches up and bites us on the ass! :lol:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

Andreas
Associate
Posts: 2274
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:07 am

Post by Andreas »

OK, another question, Clemsy or anyone.

When does maintaining a system, a set of rules, beliefs, truths, etc, becomes more important than the people that is supposed to be serving?

Huh? hope that makes sense.
“To live is enough.” ― Shunryu Suzuki

jonsjourney
Associate
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:24 pm
Location: Earth

Post by jonsjourney »

FACT is for every positive there is a negative, every left a right and every north a south. Participation is the key. Each side of any battle must sway the tide and WIN! HURRAH! JC might say! Let the battle begin and Last Forever More! HURRAH! Funny thing about the tides though, they come and go.
Echoes of the Bhagavad Gita. :)
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

Locked