Why is it so difficult to leave religion?

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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Stone_Giant
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Post by Stone_Giant »

“Chatwin (1988) believes that religion is a response to anxiety”
Exactly! I have long thought that religion is just an externalisation of our basic survival instinct. By that I don’t just mean a wish fulfilment vision of an afterlife, so we can better deal with the thought of death….no, it is more complex than that. The need for a holy book and a set of rules (10 commandments or whatever, takes the whole notion further, saying that there is a perfect way to lead our lives; follow that way and little bad will happen to you.

To put it another way, as the survival urge permeates up through the Reptilian Brain to be given its justification by the NeoCortex, we extemporize (unconsciously) that it is not enough just to survive, but you must also do it well, and so for many, piety becomes paramount.

The difficulty in leaving religion is the same difficulty of living without anxiety/survival instinct; furthermore, it is this conflict which creates the much vaunted "God Shaped hole" we all carry within us.
Want to wash away my sins, in the presence of my friends. (Arcade Fire)

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Post by Clemsy »

“Chatwin (1988) believes that religion is a response to anxiety”
I think this agrees well with Campbell's assertion that myth (religion) is a reaction to our awareness of the brutality of life.

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sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Agreed on above.. with the above and the belief in the hereafter goes way back 30,000 years of worshiping the goddess and 7,000 worshiping the son of the goddess. this is taken from Archaeology and Anthropology etc,.
The topic is huge indeed, I like the idea that mankind NEEDS to put upon ‘the gods’ that which they cannot carry themselves- eg birth and its utter remarkable nature- the notion of life itself- the notion of purpose, and its accompanying archetypes such as the Hero etc,.
Religion offers aspiration, tries to prevent incest and promotes rules of social engagement- all of which assumes each of us need to be ‘taught’ rather than KNOW WITHIN. Whatever, we are left with belief and all belief is second hand- what lies beyond belief is what matters-
Freedom from and Freedon to.....Thus most of use remain suspended between the two.
Science seems to offer more and more mystery. Naming each as it progresses to the next unknown.
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

onedone
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Post by onedone »

I agree with the above...social norms etc., that religion plays a major part in. Along with the rituals and politics of a society and civilization. I think there is a consensus on this.
If we can reason on what the spiritual aspect of religion tries to covey and dictates that worship be applied there is always a mystery factor to this.
" Science seems to offer more and more mystery. "
I'll assume you are relating to QM quantum mechanics. Some verified facts about QM,

QM tells us that an observation of one object can instantaneously influence the behavior of another greatly distant object even if no physical force connects the two.

QM tells us that observing an object to be some place causes it to be there. It wasn’t there before you observed it. If we observe an atom to be someplace, it was our looking at it that caused it to be there.

QM tells us that an object can be in many places and many states at once.

QM denies the existence of a physically real world independent of someone’s observations of it.

It is not common sense that one object can be in two far apart places at once.
Common sense tells us that there is a “real world” whether or not we look at it. But, that is not true. Nothing is real until someone observes it.
A photon of light—or an atom—is either a wave or a particle depending on what we want it to be.
Objects can exist in multiple places and only become real and localized when an observer expects it to be somewhere and actually looks for it there.

With these facts in mind, it could be said that if Humanity did not exist to observe this sense of reality, would it still exist? With a belief in a Creator it could be said that yes, the observations of the Creator are the source and the cause of all existence, with or without Humanity. Therefore this would be one reason for worship in and of a Creator.

Stfrancis
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Post by Stfrancis »

Religion offers hope to learn the unknown, to see our deceased loved ones again and to gain consolation during difficult times on earth. It serves as a means to meditate . It allows for structure in an unstructured secular existance. We draw inner strength from the holy spirit. People have died in the cause of religion so it is fair to say it is inate and compelling.

sharibanflynn
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Post by sharibanflynn »

Beautiful posts herein.. as we struggle to find that which seems to exist only when we find it..etc..
We all HAVE to have beliefs.. so we may as well adopt useful ones rather than (necessarily) orthodox ones.. I personally have concluded no human will stand between me and that which made me... I am my own priest and responsible for what i do in this world , This also includes the notion that I will given what I need when I need it at the rate/pace I can cope with at the time etc.. and that method or technique to acquire/achieve/get same is totally irrelevant as all that is required is to ‘ALLOW’.
That what is acquired thus is freely given and freely received and such amounts to warnings / healing / guidance and validation within me when needed.. so having gotten prostate cancer and knowing it would go (a deep KNOWING) it went and the Specialist does not know how as it remains unique (to him) and has not precedent medically..
Having been trained as (almost) as high as one can in Psychotherapy- the above still occurs with patients who are clinically suicidal and turn their life around (three patients in as many decades of practice were unable to readjust sufficiently to move on, I am sorry to report).
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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Faith

Post by nmadore »

It's the magic word of every fervent believer. You could be making all the sense in the world and they will simply smile at you condescendingly and say; 'oh, ye of little faith!'
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onedone
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Re: Faith

Post by onedone »

nmadore wrote:It's the magic word of every fervent believer. You could be making all the sense in the world and they will simply smile at you condescendingly and say; 'oh, ye of little faith!'
Well yes, most people do not like to use the gray matter between their ears. So research and reading scholarly articles about any subject is out of the question. For some fervent believers the bliss is in not ever questioning anything again.

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Post by sharibanflynn »

Knowing your instrument does not mean you stop reading music..it can mean you can play your own tune as well, if not as well as the next. Uniqueness is peculiar and so both annoying for those who would have it otherwise. The terror of freedom to be as equal as the next and to have the capacity to be (in your unique way) as good as the next and no better is indeed a concern...
what if...eventually each owns their own power and follow their own leading..... Is such a concept worrying? ‘cause spiritual FREEDOM holds the prospect of each finding their own way for themselves.. and my task is to offer those whom I have the privilege to help to find their own way to their own talent within. That is Religion! And yes we cannot come away from 'it'...
I still work with people who are suicidal. my main interest is in sculpture via ceramics

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Post by Roncooper »

I just found this thread. I feel so lucky to have the time to read through these. Revisiting these is a task I would strongly recommend, if you can. It is like enjoying a bouquet of ideas.

I have only finished 4 pages but would like to contribute some thoughts.

Thank you Cindy B. for the link to Technoshamanism, I’ll take any help I can get. The idea of induced experiences reminds me of a lesson I read from a mystic who I will paraphrase as, “Having a religious experience without training is like being thrown in the ocean without knowing how to swim.” At least the person finds out there is an ocean.

Thank you Neoplato for the peek into your view of Neoplatonism, it is such an interesting philosophy and I am learning much from it.

My take on why it is difficult to leave religion comes from my view of the evolutionary role of humanity. The human race has a part to play in creating tomorrow. The individual plays its part in three ways. There is a maintenance role, an effort to bring about a better tomorrow, which brings meaning to life, and there is a relationship with the whole. It is this relationship with the whole we call religion.

If we focus on the first two ways then we only experience the third when we get derailed, so to speak. Religion becomes meaningful when we suffer greatly, or run into a dead end, or take drugs. If the third way becomes meaningful, then we can live a life that is rewarding both spiritually and physically. But we can also choose to focus on the third and give up the first two, which is the path of the holy one.

A person can ignore the third way when it comes calling, or declare it to be illusion, but when one can no longer perform the first two, due to age or circumstance; the third is there to bring the good news hidden behind the illusion.

A person can ignore the third way, or call it chemicals, or DNA, or psychological, that is their choice. But for me they are like a person who drives to the beach and stays in their car. Of course this is only my opinion.

Ron

onedone
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Post by onedone »

Sam Harris states in this interview,
Religion provides the only story that is fundamentally consoling in the face of the worst possible experiences--the death of a parent, for instance. In fact, many religions take away the problem entirely, because their adherents ostensibly believe that they're going to be reunited with everyone they love, and death is an illusion. There is no rational substitute for that consolation, and I think we atheists need to admit this.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... sm/275273/

Just in context to this topic, I think it's a strong point that " There is no rational substitute for that consolation" as a part of the grieving process.

Nermin
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Re: Why is it so difficult to leave religion?

Post by Nermin »

drichards wrote:Why is it so difficult to leave religion?
Butting in with everybody's kind permission; religions are so old and equally
powerful with respect to institutionalization and there's also rituals.
You know, Campbell says that one can coerce people to do almost anything
once you made them part of certain rituals (Let me remind you that I'm telling
this most objectively, as a fact -without being against religion). Thank you :)
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Dionysus
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Post by Dionysus »

The Buddhist, Stephen Bachelor, writes, "Religions are united not in belief in God but by belief in life after death."

This is important to consider because Buddhism, one of the three Great Religions, is an agnostic faith.

Of the here and now the Buddha wrote:

"But if there is no other world and there is no fruit and ripening of actions well done or ill done, then here and now, in this life, I shall be free from hostility, affliction and anxiety, and I shall live happily."

This is it. As Campbell often alluded to, You have to get it here. You have to get your bliss here. This is all you've got. All the rest is conjecture. Go! Have no fear! The boons await. Understand here. Understand now. Watch the attachments. Love while you can and be who you are. Enjoy the ride and participate joyfully in the sorrow of the world. Embrace it all. It is perfect; if it wasn't you wouldn't be here.

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Post by Nermin »

Dionysus wrote:The Buddhist, Stephen Bachelor, writes, "Religions are united not in belief in God but by belief in life after death."
Apparently, some religions have the purpose of defining a relationship to Celestial
authority. But in some others, there's also an idea of salvation and liberation as well.
I remember reading something like this in a Jung article :)
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Dionysus
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Post by Dionysus »

Hi Nermin, Certainly the Semitic Religions do (Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam). Certainly the idea of salvation is integral to Christianity. In Buddhism there was no Fall, no original sin, no need to be saved.

Understanding the here and now with the added bonus of there being no Fall and you have saved yourself. You are free. You no longer are attached to the things which bind and hold you (us) and keep us focused on things temporal and passing.

Jung approached his blossoming understanding of human psyche from a Calvinist perspective (which is fascinating in itself) but, IMHO, as he refined his understanding he begins to sound more and more like a Buddhist in the late 1950s or early '60s.

CindyB., What is your take on this?

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