Mystery Revisted...First Function of Myth

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

Moderators: Clemsy, Martin_Weyers, Cindy B.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas »

I've never had such a fear. Hmm...perhaps Freud would say that I have a death wish, you think? :P (Actually I view death as an inevitable stage of life, so why worry about it? Living has its shares of worries enough to address.)

Cindy
Definitely agree with you there Cindy and iam not thinking it either but it is those times when the shadow of science and society comes and reminds me that non existence motif thats why i think the "old" rituals are important no matter how cruel they seem in our eyes today. They really did help the individual to connect with the world. It is those experiences that define our character and how we react in events to come that shows us who we truly are. Maybe I am talking from a completely subjective point of view, i dont know.
How many Christians see the baby in the creche and see the myth and not the history?
Clemsy iam just gonna give you a quote here from one of my favorite artist Walt Disney "Our work must have a foundation of fact in order to have sincerity". I think he meant movement but he was a great storyteller so it must have another layer of meaning in the field of story. Myth is that place i think where reality and imagination blend together to create the organic feeling of life.
Our journey into the "forest adventurous without way or path" should bring us to an individual understanding of each function and result in a sort of evolved individual who doesn't need his model of the functions to be perfectly reflected in everyone else around him.

In such a scenario, what is the purpose of rite and ritual which are the enactments of the common myth?
Maybe iam trying to compare different things here but i really think rituals that help connect the individual with his/her environment are really important. I remember reading some years ago a paper written by Claude Levi-Strauss and i might be paraphrasing it but here it is. The main conflict he said that of human in comparison to nature is that we tend to think in terms of black and white, earth and water etc but in nature there is no clear line of things, where its day in one place there is night in another, where is water and earth there is also something in between a mixture of things. I think rituals help us realize that connection and iam not talking about marriage or the Christmas tree here these are merely traditions in my eyes iam talking about that ritual that makes you experience what this thing is all about. The old tribal way.

For example the ritual of marriage holds no magic anymore at least for me because it has been governed by the idea of men laws so what should have been a ritual for understanding what this unity is about is a ritual that enhances the security of the bond in legal terms in a society we live in and it has lost its universal meaning. Can we evolve? and still not lose our humanity in the way i dont know. In other words where is that sense of awe and horror, fascination and recognition in that kind of scenario?

Point being that once an idea becomes institutionalized, it takes on a life of its own.
I think this is true. Take as an example church today as an institution can we see any relevance with what Christ said and died for? I think not.
I am able to see the "larger" concepts of Tolkien's mythology and relate it to my own experiences in some way. If I am touched by a story in an emotional way, I am connecting with the mythology, right? Even if I am not the one walking into the forest. Another example of the emotional connection created in modern work, to stay with the above-mentioned possibilities, is Harry Potter. During the film The Order of the Phoenix, if you care at all about Harry, you feel the strong pang of pain and sorrow he experiences when his godfather, Sirius Black is killed. You feel Harry's pain because you have grown with him and the story.
Exactly my feelings jons but for how long can this substitute the real experience of being alive. Sure is emotional you do care about the character you do feel the pain of loss and the realization that come after it but if you are not experiencing the forest can this be considered to be a substitute? Can we reach the same level of awareness as when there were rituals to support the myth?

Its like JD quoted from "The Hero's Journey"
It must then show you yourself that you are similarly transparent to transcendence. And finally, in a mythologically organized society, all of the rituals are organized in such a way that they help you to experience yourself, the world, and the social order of which you are a part, in this mystical way.”
and jd i have held faith in those mythologies for a long time they seem to guide me to a way i was eager to follow but like in every positive there is a negative. Campbell addresses this in Myths to Live By p.49
It is in the fields of arts that the reductive, life-diminishing effect of the loss of all sense of form is today most disquieting; for it is in their arts that the creative energies of people are best displayed and can best be measured....
And he goes on... the myths are going to be only as good as society renders them i guess.

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Post by Clemsy »

Andreas, I also meant to comment on this:
Dont you think that lets say for example movies, novels or art in general can fill that gap in our society? I know for sure that movies can relieve some anxieties.
Absolutely, and Campbell addresses this very point. Art can resonate with us in the same way myth does. The best work comes from that deeper wisdom where dreams and myth are born, no? While I do respond to film as you mention, and I also will que up a TLOTR movie in a similar manner to JJ, my primary mode is the printed page. I read TLOTR for the umpteenth time this summer.

The story touches something quite deep. I discuss this elsewhere in these forums.

I agree with you re the Potter stories, also.

And just briefly:
i really think rituals that help connect the individual with his/her environment are really important. ...where is that sense of awe and horror, fascination and recognition in that kind of scenario?
I think it depends on the individual. As Campbell said, some folks need the bells and incense for this experience. Personally, living in the forest as I do, I am constantly experiencing a sense of 'aesthetic arrest,' Great Horned Owl hooting in the middle distance at night, Northern Phoebe (a friend and neighbor) perched briefly on my deck railing, tail feathers twitching, the first snow through the bare branches...

I used to live in The City (that always means NYC) and know how... distant I was from nature (Although access to the ocean did fill that gap during the summer.).Looking back, it seems barren relative to the leaves softly beginning to turn towards autumn outside.

Cheers,
Clemsy
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Andreas »

Clemsy,

Thanks for reminding me what this is about. Although its not long since i came from my vacations in beautiful natural locations it seems its so easy to forget when trying to follow the rhythms of the city.

Oh and thanks again for the Creative Mythology book you noted i sure gonna buy this one iam not even sure how i missed it, there iam talking about art and story and havent read a work by Campbell named Creative Mythology :D

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

jd101 wrote: In this quote above, Campbell seems to be re-defining a fully functioning mythology to be something quite narrow. One of the potential problems with this is that it really elevates the importance of the mystical religions and diminishes the relevance of many traditional non-mystical religions, say that of Judaism.
I don't think a fully functioning myth is defined here as something narrow. The problem with religion as a function of ethics and socially (rather than mystically) based religion is, that if the first function of myth isn't served well, the other functions don't work either -- they have to be implemented in an authoritarian way: Look at the history of monotheism.

What we have to look for is something that appeals to the inner and outer world, mind and body, I and Thou without separation. to point to the transcendent function of myth means to transcend narrowness.

It's not sufficient to have mythic images or mythic stories. Mythic art helps to give us an idea of transcendence, but not to become transcendent.

Myths and rituals can't be distinguished from each other. That's why the popular question Which one was first? is not meaningful at all. If both are distinguished, you have art rather than myth. That's why a Gothic cathedral is rather myth than art, while Harry Potter is rather art than myth.
Cindy B. wrote:
jd101 wrote: The mystery for me comes about because no matter how much I might learn about the mind from various perspectives, or no matter how well I might come to know my own mind, what we tend to call "mind" still remains elusive so there always more to delve into.
Cindy
The mystery of the inner world and its relation to the outer world is indeed the great mystery of all times. Today we have more time though to think about ourselves, and as individualists we have separated ourselves from our culture and society, more than people in other societies. We are more busy with ourselves than with anything else. That's why for today's people "the journey goes inwards", as the German Romantic poet Novalis put it (unless we prefer to concentrate on amusing ourselves, to put our mind off things.

You know, according to Aristoteles, philosophy starts with awe. To be in awe of the mystery of existance does not necessarily make a good philosopher; On the other hand someone who is not in awe would definitely make a bad philosopher. There are great scientists who are bad philosophers. That does not keep them from writing popular philosophy books and educate the public in a poor way.

The bad philosopher-scientist believes the world can be explained in rational terms: For him, animals, plants and stars have lost their role as of man's "mysterious neighbors". However, for this sort of people our brain and nerve cells have lost their mysterious character too, and no matter if you point to the mystery of a plant or a thought, they will respond that these are not matters of a meaningful conversation.

Back to the original question:

If you want to get a sense of the mysterious powers that are working beyond our usual understanding of the cosmos, pictures of neurons, galaxies, embryos, DNA, etc. are great points to start with.
jd101 wrote: From swirling electrons to separate self. Yep, that is pretty mysterious to me!
If you can put that into a convincing image, you're a great artist; If you are successful in becoming a popular artist, you have succeeded in creating a myth that works out as an appropriate means for the first function of mythology.

If this seems too demanding, you may like to start with a major idea of the modern technical world that really strikes me, namely the idea of cyberspace. If used in an inspiring way, that topic can give us a sense of transcendence and awe. The first step is to acknowledge that the world is not what it seems to be. The second step is to delve into the otherworld. An electron might be a great vehicle.

I enjoyed films like Blade Runner, Matrix and especially Ted Williams Otherland (the latter is highly recommendable to Science Fiction and mythology fans -- have you read it Clemsy?) I feel though that there is much more potential in the cyberspace motif, and if I would be a writer, I would write a cyber-novel, but (in contrast to the usual SF stories) a book where the technical world, too, is unveiled as a delusion.

I don't know how to ritualize that. Maybe one day, with the help of an advanced cyber-technology. Since then the good old traditions of meditation, Tai Ji and Yoga should still work for us. Used as rituals, these can be means to internalize our modern experience of the cosmos, and to give it more depths. You don't need to share the Christian, Hinduist or Buddhist view of the cosmos to use their mytical practizes as a ritual. Why not putting an image of an electron on your altar instead of Buddha, Vishnu or Christ?
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Campbell and Jung and personal myths

Post by Cindy B. »

Food for thought…

I’m about to state the obvious for many, but the commonality among those previously mentioned movies, books—all art, actually--religions, and myth that resonate with us is what's archetypal arising from the collective unconscious. Campbell, of course, recognized the importance of archetypes and the Jungian collective unconscious, though he didn’t specifically incorporate these conceptualizations into his four functions of myth—that is, unless I’ve missed something in my readings—yet this is at the root of it all, I believe, in terms of both the personal and the social aspects of myth. A curious thing about the effects of archetypes is that they can be both transcendent and immanent in their expressions, so for any particularly inclined to discover his “personal myth,” or to pursue the numinous as is central to Campbell’s thinking in regard to the modern’s need to cultivate a sense of the spiritual or mystical, Jung’s depth psychological approach might suit some. A difference, though, to keep in mind between Campbell and Jung when it comes to the mythological is that Campbell most often tends to stay on the surface when pointing out the comparative similarities among myths and their universal truths, while a Jungian approach focuses on each individual discovering for himself the meanings of various mythical elements and what is most meaningful, and including the enactment or not of ritualistic activities. In the end, however, both men have the same message: All is ultimately interconnected and a reflection of a transcendental unity. (So much for individualism, huh.)

Last, about science. Science, too, can be added to the list of what speaks to us given its roots in the archetypal and the collective unconscious. As Jung said: Human knowledge consists essentially in the constant adaptation of the primordial pattern of ideas that were given us “a priori,” i.e., the archetypes. The interesting thing about archetypes in this regard arises from Jung’s assertion that archetypes are inherently psychophysical, that is, they are of both matter/world and psyche/mind, which means, of course, that so is the collective unconscious. (Jung came to this view given a collaboration with physicist Wolfgang Pauli. Also, the psychophysical view has gained support in certain contemporary philosophies of mind and areas of cognitive science.) The implication for the hard sciences is that the focus on matter and the objective in conjunction with a dismissal or denial of the psyche and the subjective is a false distinction; at bottom, each is complementary of the other and expressive of a single underlying reality. (Jung also believed that the archetypal glue, so to speak, at the core of this underlying reality is numbers in both their quantitative and qualitative aspects.) My point—from the Jungian perspective, the collective unconscious and its contents, the archetypes, are the link to that transcendental unity I mentioned above, even for science. Theoretical quantum physics, for example, has finally caught on to this in certain respects, one reason why this particular science resonates with so many of us who are drawn to Campbell and Jung. All varieties of science, though, as known and practiced over time are expressions of the archetypal, and have historically included a sense of the mystical for many of their practitioners.

Anyway, art, religion, myth, science—any and all of these can inform one’s personal mythology and what is most meaningful in our modern times. Along with, of course, Jungian analytical psychology and the teachings of Campbell. :wink:

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Andreas »

Myths and rituals can't be distinguished from each other. That's why the popular question Which one was first? is not meaningful at all. If both are distinguished, you have art rather than myth. That's why a Gothic cathedral is rather myth than art, while Harry Potter is rather art than myth.
Hey Martin,

Iam not sure if i understand what you are saying here. The way i perceive it is that both a Gothic Cathedral and Harry Potter are art and both are not working fully as a myth because exactly they dont have the element of ritual. If you compare the Cathedral and the movie theatre both of them can be considered as a place for rituals but none of them has the elements of a ritual that can put the individuals psyche in accord with the society or the world. Unless iam missing something isnt that the case here?

Andreas

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Post by jd101 »

Interesting stuff indeed, Clemsy.

I love the Creative Mythology quote
… the mythogenetic zone is the individual heart. Individualism and spontaneous pluralism—the free association of men and women of like spirit, under protection of a secular, rational state with no pretensions to divinity…
That is a wonderful expression of a major focus of Campbell’s politics, which we are discussing a bit over in the ‘Sotomayor Thread’. In my view, one of JC’s rightful concerns was how to ensure individualism against the threat of an intrusive political state.

Clemsy wrote
Our journey into the "forest adventurous without way or path" should bring us to an individual understanding of each function and result in a sort of evolved individual who doesn't need his model of the functions to be perfectly reflected in everyone else around him.
This is an interesting thought. Let’s see if I understand it.

So we have individuals blossoming into a creative mythology and they journey into the forest path as individuals and this could give us a new phase of mythology. So you are saying that in this case the cosmological, sociological and pedagogical functions might vary considerably and that would be fine.

Let’s take the JC associates here as an example. It seems that many of us have journeyed in the forest path or our own, and from those individual inquires we each have come to some sort of experience of the Mystery. We then relate the Mystery to our own understanding of the present day cosmology, and we also have each developed our own takes of a moral order that more or less works for us, as well as having reconciled ourselves with our travels through the stages of life.

Perhaps you are on to something.

This reminds me of the story of Indra’s net of gems. Each gem where the threads interconnected reflected the other gems. Kind of like a hologram. Also like a fractal as you can zoom in or zoom out.

The individual of course could be on his own, or could be a small tribe somewhere, or even a net connected clan of JC associates!
john

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Post by Clemsy »

Hi John!
the threat of an intrusive political state.
Which may not mean the same thing from one person to another... and that's pretty much the point of my post. Fine and dandy as long as the difference is expressed above the level of the stomach chakra, no? Down there is all that "Grrr! I'm right you're wrong case closed go to hell" sort of thing. :wink:
So you are saying that in this case the cosmological, sociological and pedagogical functions might vary considerably and that would be fine.
I think so, although I would imagine the variance would be less as you get to the core of your own social group.
Let’s take the JC associates here as an example. It seems that many of us have journeyed in the forest path or our own, and from those individual inquires we each have come to some sort of experience of the Mystery. We then relate the Mystery to our own understanding of the present day cosmology, and we also have each developed our own takes of a moral order that more or less works for us, as well as having reconciled ourselves with our travels through the stages of life.
Yes! This really does allow humans to mature beyond the need for a rigid, external moral code. Scares the daylights out of those who believe, passionately, that only the external code keeps us off the slippery slope to depravity. This, as far as I'm concerned, is the flaw in the Fall of Man: it demands a disciplinary father - child relationship with the Divine. Makes for a good excuse for the intrusion you mention above, whether by the state or the church.
Perhaps you are on to something.
Always thought so, but gotta credit Campbell for putting it out there with the right words in the right order!
This reminds me of the story of Indra’s net of gems. Each gem where the threads interconnected reflected the other gems. Kind of like a hologram. Also like a fractal as you can zoom in or zoom out.

The individual of course could be on his own, or could be a small tribe somewhere, or even a net connected clan of JC associates!
Bingo! 8)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by Andreas »

Yes! This really does allow humans to mature beyond the need for a rigid, external moral code. Scares the daylights out of those who believe, passionately, that only the external code keeps us off the slippery slope to depravity. This, as far as I'm concerned, is the flaw in the Fall of Man: it demands a disciplinary father - child relationship with the Divine. Makes for a good excuse for the intrusion you mention above, whether by the state or the church.


This was always confusing for me, how the external moral code always consider some people to be mature or immature. In that respect because i wasnt successful at making money i was never mature for society at least. It wasnt long ago i discovered that having a balanced psyche or life had nothing to do with me making enough money or being successful in my job.

However it seems i have not beaten it completely in my mind there is still doubt so if i can ask you how can you find out if in your life you had a second birth or a resurrection. Is it possible to trace this? what are the clues we should be looking to see that we are truly changing and not fooling ourselves or myself.

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Post by Cindy B. »

Andreas,

I’m going to don my psychologist’s hat and offer you a practical suggestion, yet it’s up to you, of course, to decide whether or not this speaks to you…

…because ultimately, no one can know better than you what's working for you and what you need. So my suggestion is that you give yourself permission to place your trust solely in yourself. This is your life, your journey, even your responsibility to make change happen, and you, like the rest of us, are quite capable of seeing this through, so trust in yourself rather than in any other voices who might disagree with your choices or offer those “shoulds.” When you allow yourself to trust in yourself, there’s never any chance of “fooling” yourself because if you’re truly listening, there’s always that little voice inside, so to speak, that says, “Yes, this is what suits me and meets my needs, so I’m on the right path,” or “No, this doesn’t suit me and what I need,” and should this be the case, your next step would be self-reflection and deciding what you’re going to do about what’s not working for you. Change and becoming the person whom you’re genuinely meant to be is a process that will go on until your last day, so all this takes time, meaning that patience is required and small steps along the way everyday. And if necessary until it becomes habit, everyday remind yourself that you’ve given yourself permission to trust in your own process and in that personal wisdom arising from within. True, there will be occasions when it seems as if nothing is quite right, but this always passes, and reminding yourself of this, too, will help. And without question you are indeed “truly changing,” otherwise you wouldn’t even raise the issue. Most of us, by the way, go through the same thing as you and along the way have similar doubts, even in the midst of those periods when we do seem to be in sync with ourselves (Self). Essentially what it comes down to for anyone is a change in attitude from giving away power to others to empowering oneself. And my best to you.

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by Andreas »

As always Cindy your advice is gold. Every time you say something it gives me a new perspective of looking into things and so many times i say i dont have trust in a person or in society or in a process but the only one who I have to trust is myself. So much trouble for such a small thing. :lol:

Thanks one more time.

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Post by Martin_Weyers »

Andreas wrote:
Myths and rituals can't be distinguished from each other. That's why the popular question Which one was first? is not meaningful at all. If both are distinguished, you have art rather than myth. That's why a Gothic cathedral is rather myth than art, while Harry Potter is rather art than myth.
Hey Martin,

Iam not sure if i understand what you are saying here. The way i perceive it is that both a Gothic Cathedral and Harry Potter are art and both are not working fully as a myth because exactly they dont have the element of ritual. If you compare the Cathedral and the movie theatre both of them can be considered as a place for rituals but none of them has the elements of a ritual that can put the individuals psyche in accord with the society or the world. Unless iam missing something isnt that the case here?

Andreas
Sorry for not being clear on this point!

The Gothic cathedral was not build for 21th century tourists, but for community rituals of the 12th century. I think the experience of a cathedral as art is a product of modern man's view.

By viewing it as art we are separating the cathedral from the rituals and myths it was built for, separating it from the spirit that it represents. The temple, in our minds, becomes a piece of architecture. It becomes a museum - a place for education and entertainment -- like the cinema.

Cinemas are places where the technical equipment for screening movies is provided, a place where beer, popcorn and distraction from reality (and occasionally art) is sold. The everyday rituals you can observe in a cinema can't be compared to celebrating Mass.

On the other hand, films and stories with a mythic spirit (if they are well done) don't need to be distractions. They may offer inspiration for individuals. (Harry Potter may offer mythic inspiration, at least for children.) While sharing a common myth is always at the expense of personal freedom. That's why I prefer art rather than myth, and if you're able to find proper rituals for the arts, you have a myth without the brainwashing aspect.

Hope that's more clear!
Works of art are indeed always products of having been in danger, of having gone to the very end in an experience, to where man can go no further. -- Rainer Maria Rilke

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Post by Cindy B. »

Andreas wrote: So much trouble for such a small thing... Thanks one more time.
On the surface it does seem like a simple thing, huh, to recognize the need to trust in oneself. Yet there's nothing easy about bumping up against the social conditioning that permeates our lives and society's push for conformity. And you're quite welcomed, Andreas. Everyone here goes or went through that period when we first begin to take control of our own journeys and when the most uncertainty exists. This too shall pass. :wink:

Cindy
If the path before you is clear, you’re probably on someone else’s. --Jung

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Post by jd101 »

The Gothic cathedral was not build for 21th century tourists, but for community rituals of the 12th century. I think the experience of a cathedral as art is a product of modern man's view.

By viewing it as art we are separating the cathedral from the rituals and myths it was built for, separating it from the spirit that it represents. The temple, in our minds, becomes a piece of architecture. It becomes a museum - a place for education and entertainment -- like the cinema.


Beautifully expressed, Martin.

Earlier this week I was taking my 4 year old boy Tristan to the cinema in La Jolla, California close to where we live. It was a fine Tuesday morning, and since it is school season here, I relished the fact that we were the ONLY ones in the auditorium. We were viewing Miyazaki’s new film Ponyo and here is a plot summary.
Acclaimed anime master Hayao Miyazaki returns for his ninth animated feature with Ponyo, which deals with a friendship between a five-year-old boy and a goldfish princess that yearns to be human. The daughter of the king of the ocean, Ponyo is no ordinary goldfish -- she has all the magic of the sea at her disposal. But when five year old Sosuke befriends the spunky little fish near the seaside home he shares with his mother and father, a special connection sparks between the two children, and Ponyo becomes determined to become human. Transforming into a little girl, Ponyo shows up at Sosuke's doorstep, delighted to make herself at home with her new land-dwelling family. But having a magical fish princess walking around on dry land begins setting the mystical balance of the world off kilter, and even though the innocent love Ponyo feels for her dear friend is strong, it will take some help from the greatest powers in the ocean to make things right again.
After seeing the film I was reflecting on the conversation here, and the interplay of myth, art and cinema was churning in my mind. I think that, as Martin also expressed, films and stories with a mythic spirit can be very inspirational, and this was very true for me.

While Ponyo is filled with beautiful imagery from the master Miyazaki, the film also depicts a world struggling for environmental balance and asks questions about the evolution of all life on the planet in quite profound ways. It also frames some astounding insights into the Japanese mythic spirit, and this really was a grand moment for me.

At a critical point in the film, Ponyo transforms from fish to girl, and while the little boy Sosuke embraces her in complete acceptance, the moment comes when Sosuke’s mom meets Ponyo. The mother previously has seen Ponyo as fish, and her first words after assessing the situation are quite revealing of Campbell description of ‘traditional Japanese mythology’.

The mother realizes that a magical transformation has indeed occurred, and she slowly says “Life is a Mystery……..and Amazing.”

The way this scene was set up was very amazing. Here we had the first function of mythology in evidence, and Miyazaki is expressing awe at the mystery of the universe. Secondly and of great importance, is the second utterance, “and it is Amazing”. This is a demonstration of a great positive acceptance of the Mystery, an acceptance of Life as it is. Not wanting to escape or withdraw from Life, but a genuine acceptance and a joyful participation.

It was a joy to get a taste of this mythic world for an hour, and wonderful to have glimpses of the subtle and deep variations in the Japanese mythos of what, on the surface was just a children’s cartoon.


john

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Post by Andreas »

jd this is wonderful. Iam a big fan of Miyazaki and yesterday i was watching some interviews of him for inspiration, here is the link if you are intersted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJLBED-6M8I

I really like the part of him saying that "Violence is innate in all humans the problem is to learn to control it" really amazing mentality for an artist.

Locked