Who were the first Christians

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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nyakuri
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Who were the first Christians

Post by nyakuri »

This is a continuation of the thread Ancient Egyptian Spirituality. The topic has changed and this issue seems to be of great interest to others from the post that I have read.

This was was my last comment:

Now we can get down to the basis of my dilemma right now. You acknowledge that Jesus is mythology right? That being the case, where did Christianity come from? You keep mentioning the early Christian writers. So far I know Justin Martyr's beliefs are all over the place. These confessions of early Christians like him and Origin are highly suspect to me. Could it be these confessions were fabricated by the Greek rulers to make it look like these followers of traditional deities like Isis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Zeus (whose name and attributes suspiciously are close to Jesus) kissed their butts to be accepted into their imperial community?

One interesting figure that I'm investigating is Ptolemy I (Soter). He was the first Greek ruler of post dynastic Egypt (for those who might not know this). Soter is Greek for savior and he started the European based movement that eventually became Christianity. The deity called Sarapis, who was created by sellout Egyptian priest for Ptolemy I to usurp the traditional Egyptian deities, was instrumental in this. All remnants of the Sarapis cult was wiped out after the formation of Christianity. This included the Sarapheum, which housed the largest library ever documented. Those that want more information on this can go to this link:

http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/hermes2.htm

Evinnra
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Re: Who were the first Christians

Post by Evinnra »

nyakuri wrote:This is a continuation of the thread Ancient Egyptian Spirituality. The topic has changed and this issue seems to be of great interest to others from the post that I have read.

This was was my last comment:

Now we can get down to the basis of my dilemma right now. You acknowledge that Jesus is mythology right? That being the case, where did Christianity come from? You keep mentioning the early Christian writers. So far I know Justin Martyr's beliefs are all over the place. These confessions of early Christians like him and Origin are highly suspect to me. Could it be these confessions were fabricated by the Greek rulers to make it look like these followers of traditional deities like Isis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Zeus (whose name and attributes suspiciously are close to Jesus) kissed their butts to be accepted into their imperial community?

One interesting figure that I'm investigating is Ptolemy I (Soter). He was the first Greek ruler of post dynastic Egypt (for those who might not know this). Soter is Greek for savior and he started the European based movement that eventually became Christianity. The deity called Sarapis, who was created by sellout Egyptian priest for Ptolemy I to usurp the traditional Egyptian deities, was instrumental in this. All remnants of the Sarapis cult was wiped out after the formation of Christianity. This included the Sarapheum, which housed the largest library ever documented. Those that want more information on this can go to this link:

http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/hermes2.htm


Hmmm.The making of yet another anti Christian propaganda stunt. Interesting? Not at all. Amusing? In a very strange way, perhaps. To write a script that denies the existence of the early Christian congregations one would need to pay at least as much attention to the topic at hand as to correctly spell the name of Origen. There was much debate about the person of Origen in academic and theological circles, but there is little doubt about how to spell his name correctly .
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nyakuri
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Post by nyakuri »

Evinnra

There was much debate about the person of Origen in academic and theological circles, but there is little doubt about how to spell his name correctly.

Ok you got me, I misspelled his name. Does it make you feel good to put down a person for misspelling a name? I'm here to engage in intellectual debate so I would like to know what contribution you can you make in that regard? I have met some interesting people in this blog so I hope you have something to contribute, other than being offended because I don't see things your way.

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Post by nyakuri »

Just got some new info. The first Christian was Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Vespasianus, (November 17, 9 – June 23, 79). His birth and death link the closes with the birth of Jesus and his military campaigns directly line up with events in the bible.

"The Romans' solution to these problems was to create a special kind of post-war propaganda. They called it in Greek evangelion, a technical term meaning "good news of military victory." In English, it is translated as "gospel." The name is in fact ironic humor: the Romans were amusing themselves with the notion of making the Jews accept, as the actions of the Messiah Jesus, what were in fact literary echoes of the very battles in which the Romans had defeated the Jews' armies. A further joke was buried in unmistakable parallels between the life of Jesus and that of Titus: in worshiping Jesus, the Jews who adopted Christianity, as it came to be called, were in fact hailing the Emperor of their conquerors as god."

Taken from Joseph Atwill's Cesar's Messiah

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/

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Post by SiCollier »

Well, this is an interesting theme. It could become an interesting discussion. But:


1.
nyakuri
You acknowledge that Jesus is mythology right?
No, I don’t. Maybe (obviously) much of what we know about him is legend or mythology. But that he was born, lived and was crucified is without any doubt fact for me.


2.
nyakuri
Could it be these confessions were fabricated by the Greek rulers to make it look like these followers of traditional deities like Isis, Aphrodite, Demeter, Zeus (whose name and attributes suspiciously are close to Jesus) kissed their butts to be accepted into their imperial community?
Can you proof that? Or is that your speculation? To me it sounds like a theory of conspiracy.


3.
The German publisher for Joseph Atwill's „Cesar's Messiah“ compares this book with the ones written by Lincoln/Baigent/Leigh and Dan Brown. I have read books by the named authors. All of them are novels. Fiction - not fact.

You don’t expect me to take Mr Atwills theory for serious, do you?


It seems, we have quite different point of views. And a different understanding, what can be taken as a proof and what not. So this theme indeed is of interest to me. But I don’t know, whether an exchange of views is possible.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * *


To avoid misunderstanding: my post is not to sound rude or harsh. English is not my mother tongue, so maybe I sometimes use not the right words.
"The most convincing proof for the existance of water ist thurst." Franz von Baader (1765-1841)

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Post by Neoplato »

Ok, since I feel that no one has taken me seriously on this thread (or former thread) the gloves are coming off. :twisted:
Ok you got me, I misspelled his name. Does it make you feel good to put down a person for misspelling a name?
That tells me you don't take care in referencing who you are quoting, or the quality of your posts.

nyakuri, you do not address that Jesus (or pick a name, I prefer Joshua) was a disciple of John the Baptist (who knows what his teachings were). He also had many references available to him from eastern religions, whether or not he practiced this can only be told from his quotes (which seem to me very "Buddhist in nature").

Why are you so hung up on the "God" thing? Was Jesus God? No more than you or me. A man tried to bring a new way of thinking to his people, what's so bad about that?

Were there Early christians and did they call themselves "Christians"? What does it matter? What's in a name? They believed in a profession of teaching that was brought to this area of the world by a man who either conceived of the same priciples as eastern religions (thereby being a mystic) or learned them by travel.

Either way, "the golden rule" remains the same. Labels and Names are irrelivant. :roll:
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Post by nyakuri »

Neoplato
That tells me you don't take care in referencing who you are quoting, or the quality of your posts.

You complaining about one letter shows me how petty you are. You wold not be so easily bothered if it was something that fit your line of thinking.

Why are you so hung up on the "God" thing? Was Jesus God?

I never said anything about God. If you want to believe in Jesus have at it. I only want to discuss this issue with open minded people and researchers, which I except most followers of JC to be. Bringing up John the Baptist shows me you don't fall in either of these categories, cause he's a myth too.

Either way, "the golden rule" remains the same. Labels and Names are irrelivant.

Since you are such a stickler for spelling , you should learn the correct spelling of irrelevant. And why call yourself Neoplato if names don't mean anything?

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Post by nyakuri »

SiCollier
But I don’t know, whether an exchange of views is possible.

Isn't this forum for exchanging views? Do you only want to chat with people that share your pov?

nyakuri
You acknowledge that Jesus is mythology right?

SiCollier
No, I don’t. Maybe (obviously) much of what we know about him is legend or mythology. But that he was born, lived and was crucified is without any doubt fact for me.

If you take a good look at this post you will see that it was not directed to you.


Can you proof that? Or is that your speculation? To me it sounds like a theory of conspiracy.

How can something be proven that's not a fact? I can prove there were Caesars, Ptolemys, Imhotep, Akhaton and many other important figures of ancient history. The burden of proof is own your end. He's your savior, I don't believe in him.

Jesus is a mythical figure in the tradition of pagan mythology and almost nothing in all of ancient literature would lead one to believe otherwise. Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it.

-C. Dennis McKinsey, Bible critic (The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)

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Post by maatka »

Ok you got me, I misspelled his name. Does it make you feel good to put down a person for misspelling a name? I'm here to engage in intellectual debate so I would like to know what contribution you can you make in that regard? I have met some interesting people in this blog so I hope you have something to contribute, other than being offended because I don't see things your way.
Throwing out assumptions and wielding ad hominem attacks is NOT what can be considered an intellectual debate. You assume that people disagree with you because what you are saying is so new, it’s the equivalent of discovering sliced bread. Rest assured, it is not.


Evinnra

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Post by nyakuri »

Throwing out assumptions and wielding ad hominem attacks is NOT what can be considered an intellectual debate. You assume that people disagree with you because what you are saying is so new, it’s the equivalent of discovering sliced bread. Rest assured, it is not.


Evinnra[/quote]

Hmmm.The making of yet another anti Christian propaganda stunt. Interesting? Not at all. Amusing? In a very strange way, perhaps. To write a script that denies the existence of the early Christian congregations one would need to pay at least as much attention to the topic at hand as to correctly spell the name of Origen. There was much debate about the person of Origen in academic and theological circles, but there is little doubt about how to spell his name correctly .

Is this the assumption that you are talking about? Seems pretty clear that Evinnra didn't like what I had to say. All you want to do is argue about a misspelled name, shows that you don't have anything to contribute of substance to the discussion.

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Post by Neoplato »

I never said anything about God. If you want to believe in Jesus have at it. I only want to discuss this issue with open minded people and researchers, which I except most followers of JC to be. Bringing up John the Baptist shows me you don't fall in either of these categories, cause he's a myth too.
Yep, that describes me to a tee. :roll:

I don’t see why it’s so important for you to dismiss “images” as myths. A myth is a metaphor that coveys a meaning behind the symbolism. It’s not the “symbolism” that is important; it is the story and meaning that is important.

And please learn how to use the
quote
button. :roll:
Since you are such a stickler for spelling , you should learn the correct spelling of irrelevant. And why call yourself Neoplato if names don't mean anything?
I didn’t say I was, except for proper names. I always try to get those right.

“Neoplato” isn’t a name, it’s a metaphor.

I see you had nothing to say about “the golden rule” which was my point in the first place.
Throwing out assumptions and wielding ad hominem attacks is NOT what can be considered an intellectual debate. You assume that people disagree with you because what you are saying is so new, it’s the equivalent of discovering sliced bread. Rest assured, it is not.
Nice. 8)
Infinite moment, grants freedom of winter death, allows life to dawn.

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Post by Clemsy »

Howdy everybody! Let's try not to be too overtly dismissive of each other, okay?

nyakuri, start a quote with the word quote in brackets. End the quote with /quote in brackets. That ouighta set that straight.

Cheers,
Clemsy

PS: I struggled with myself to leave that mispelling up there because it's, in the long run, less than the big deal than Sister Francita taught me it was. :wink:
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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Post by SiCollier »

nyakuri
Do you only want to chat with people that share your pov?
No I don’t. But I made some bad experiences in such discussions (NOT in this Forum here!), so I’ve become quite careful.
nyakuri
The burden of proof is own your end.
Well, as far as I know, there are a few remarks on Jesus in the works of Josephus Flavius and Tacitus. Carsten Peter Thiede and Matthew d’Ancona wrote a book called „The Jesus Papyrus“ (ISBN 038548898X, in print) which indicates, that the gospel of Matthew in the form we know it was finished much earlier as thought what would make it possible (and probable), that it was written by an eye-wittness. For me those named works are proof enough.
As said earlier: this is for the physical existence of the man called Jesus.

nyakuri
(...) where did Christianity come from?
That’s a question that haunts me for a long time. Maybe there will come answers in this thread.
"The most convincing proof for the existance of water ist thurst." Franz von Baader (1765-1841)

nyakuri
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Post by nyakuri »

Clemsy wrote:Howdy everybody! Let's try not to be too overtly dismissive of each other, okay?
You're right. Thanks for being the voice of reason. Looks like I'm getting better with the quote button too.

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Post by Clemsy »

8)
Give me stories before I go mad! ~Andreas

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