Comparative phenomenon

What needs do mythology and religion serve in today's world and in ancient times? Here we discuss the relationship between mythology, religion and science from mythological, religious and philosophical viewpoints.

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creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

creekmary wrote:
So you've seen things...and believe that they're real and really happen, you just think it's all psychological?

But this is equally true of the cup of tea my wife brought me.
The theatre of the mind and other similar metaphors are useful to explore our experience. Then assuming our theatre is real then we can say that our experience of the "outside" world is at least a reflection of that world.


Okkk.....Soooo.....if seeing your grandfather's ghost is as real as a cup of tea....based on perception and however it works.....I don't see any difference of opinion. I think it's real too.

So there must be more of a difference in thinking than that. I just don't see it yet.
It could be argued a person muttering away to themselves is being being perfectly reasonable, based on the inputs (voices) the brain is receiving. Is this any less reasonable to answering your spouse based on the air vibrations reaching our eardrums, being converted into electrical signals and interpreted in the brain? In the first case the signals are generated internally and in the second externally
I don't think it is any less reasonable. I know people who do that are supposed to be crazy, but I don't think it is any less reasonable based on their more unacceptable perception. Maybe they are not necessarily all that crazy. Maybe their perception is just more broad, just not as accepted. I don't think my perception is any more valid, they are just outnumbered.

Maybe that's why crazy people tend to like me.....which I prefer better than not.
And yes I do talk to myself, and I'm not aware of internally generated voices.
If you argue with yourself, are you both sides?

Susan

romansh
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Post by romansh »

creekmary wrote: Okkk.....Soooo.....if seeing your grandfather's ghost is as real as a cup of tea....based on perception and however it works.....I don't see any difference of opinion. I think it's real too.
Not sure I understand. The two experiences are real. The two realities may not be. Either, neither or one could be false, in the rational sense that is commonly used. If the tea cup was blue, All I can say for sure that this is some kind of reflection of reality.

Similarly the ghost (if one is a disbeliever) could be a reflection of our genetics and our brain's capacity to discern patterns where non exist. The problem for the experiencer is that reality is a lot more tempting than a reflection.

eg the yellow luminous ball, I believe I saw it, I even dug up a physical explanation. But it may have been a mirage (metaphorically).
creekmary wrote: Maybe their perception is just more broad, just not as accepted.
This may be, but I am skeptical. Maybe things are the way they are. I certaintly don't "know".
creekmary wrote: If you argue with yourself, are you both sides?
Susan
No if I argue with myself it is just the exchange of potassium and calcium ions in my neurons in the brain. As is my interpretation of the colour blue.

I find using psychology as a measure, frought with potential traps. It's a bit like the police investigating themselves, should be OK, but we'll never know.

The above discussion assumes that experiences are real ... not necessarily the reality that appeared to cause the experience.

Evinnra
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Post by Evinnra »

One day - when I was still a teenager - my Dad called out to me to come into his room and help him. When I eneterd the room he said 'stop there' and as I stopped he asked ' look into that corner, what can you see?' I saw nothing but furniture a crack on the wall-covering and dust. So I told him. He asked ' are you sure'? I said yes. He said, all right then, and he lied down on his sofa to continue reading. I just left. Some times later I asked him what was this incident all about and he said: 'I though I saw a figure in the corner so I asked you to come in and tell me if it is still there or I am just imagining things.' (well, words to this extent .... )

When my daughter was about eight or nine she was getting nighmares rather frequently and not only that but she confessed to have very 'evil' thoughts in general. As she was crying I consoled her saying ' bad dreams can happen to anyone, it means only that you have a good imagination'. (Again, not exactly but words to this extent .... ) Still sobbing she asked ' am I a bad person and that is why I think about evil things?. I said ' definitely not. It is what you do what makes you good or evil, not the ideas that happen to come to your mind. Ideas can come to your mind just by eating something that does not agree with your belly or by something you saw on tv unsettling you. It does not mean that you are bad.'

In essense I tend to agree with Cindy on this topic. What we see is real. Very real. So real it has preceding and discernible causes. Sometimes fixing our nighmares is just a question of changing our diet. Though, just to 'throw the spanner in the works' here, I also think that our subconscious mind is actively in touch with Time as a whole. :shock:
'A fish popped out of the water only to be recaptured again. It is as I, a slave to all yet free of everything.'
http://evinnra-evinnra.blogspot.com

jonsjourney
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Post by jonsjourney »

When I was in 6th grade I believed that I saw a UFO hovering over a watertower that was at the edge of our neighborhood. As the years worn on, I came to realize that I had not actually seen anything, but that I wanted to see a UFO so badly that I created the experience in a dream. As some time went on, the dream became a "memory", which was false. Too many Project Blue Book investigations and UFO books were in my reading list at that age.

Years later, I read (and am reading again right now) The Hobbit. I dreamed fantastic dreams of battles with Smaug, Dark Elves, and spiders. I was older then and my mind was better able to separate my dreams from my memories.

I am not saying that the experiences of a child are equivalent to those of an adult. I am just providing the requested example of "something that happened" to me. :D

Finally, the argument that we do not "see" what we do not want to see or fear is effectively countered by the argument that we may "see" what we want to see or fear. We may just as easily desire to see a glimpse of the mystery as desire to not see it. This does not validate the position, in my view.

Arguing for the reality or non-reality of these phenomenon can only result in divisive discourse. Perhaps the thread would be better served by just sharing these interesting phenomenon without needing to judge their reality or basis. I may have erred in presenting the psychological explanation early on. Sorry. :wink:
"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." -Douglas Adams

creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

.....lol....no kidding. it's like moving from deciding if the sky is blue or gray to a discussion of what is sky? Is there a sky even there?

There can be all kinds of reasons for "why", or maybe rather "how". I think the experiences themselves are interesting. I get curious about why this particular thing happened to this particular person in whatever environment at any particular time.

Just another bunch of examples, in the same office where the shadow person slid into the empty office, I have heard someone cough when everyone was at the front, my young co-worker who sees things regularly has heard people talk at god-awful times in the morning when no one should be around, one of the young women came running to the front "what's wrong with that baby!"..."what baby?"...."I heard a baby just crying and screaming, all the way in the bathroom!". There weren't any babies, hadn't been any babies, and then the phones all started ringing for about an hour, with no one on the line. I talked recently to an older woman who had grown up in the town, and there used to be a house, or houses, where the office is now.

It's just interesting.

Susan

creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

Ok. Maybe this is a little green man story...and maybe not. I'm not sure. It was weird though.

I used to walk a lot in the woods around our house when I was 13-14, in through there. Be gone for hours until I got hungry.

I was walking through a little patch of brushy trees in the pasture, not the real woods, with my two little dogs and everything just became really quiet. Sort of like Saving Private Ryan where the shell goes off and he can't hear. Really quiet and still and kind of strange looking. I saw some things scamper through the leaves and small brush out of the corner of my eye but couldn't see what it was. Then I saw my two little dogs. They were mating, but it looked very strange. Very flat and two dimensional, just like an Egyptian hieroglyphic. Their bodies were flat, but their faces were turned full toward me. From the waist down there was a lot of normal movement, but from the waist up they were perfectly still and their faces were full toward and focused on me. Their eyes were like human eyes. Not even like the smartest animal eyes I've ever seen, but like human eyes. They watched me without moving their heads. There was still no sound. No birds nothing.

I saw movement at the bottom of a small tree and a little lime green snake, big around as my little finger and about a foot long just “whooshed” around the tree almost cartoonish fast and up around a branch until its face was even with mine. It leaned out and looked at me. Focused. A lime green snake was unusual in the first place, and for one to move that fast to look me right in the eye was very strange.

I saw its little green triangle face and little snake nostrils for a nose (right underneath its eyes, not on the tip of its nose) and huge gigantic black almond eyes. I just got sucked into those black eyes and that’s all I could see were the eyes. I just got lost in them. They were huge.

I heard my mom calling me and saw her at the top of the hill, calling for me, but I turned around pretty deliberately and walked on off into the woods.

The little snake face looked a whole lot like alien faces in books I read later. I think this might have been a time I saw something, but didn’t want to see what might have really been there, and so saw something else. I had a feeling, when I saw the dogs, of "I shouldn't see this", which was strange. It's not like I hadn't seen it before, growing up in the country with lots of pets. It just popped into my head "I shouldn't see this".

Susan

creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

Really. That is what happened. I don't think I can convey exactly what happened any more accurately. I don't make this crap up. The truth is strange enough.

Susan

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Post by Neoplato »

I had an interesting dream last night that seemed very real. I dreamed I woke up, looked at the clock, it said 3;30 am but it was totally light out. and there was a very strange noise. I looked out the window and saw a spaceship so I panicked and started running around the house with my wife not knowing what to do.

Suddenly I re-awoke looked at the clock and it was 4:00 am. Mmmm.....
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creekmary
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Post by creekmary »

Was there any "probing" involved?

Susan

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